US Secretary Hillary Clinton in an interview with Christiane Amanpour earlier this week and shown today on ABC News's This Week:
CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR: Madam Secretary, thank you for joining us.
HILLARY CLINTON: It's a pleasure. Thank you for being here in Jerusalem.
CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR: How are the talks going? Are you down beyond the sort of photo-op stage. Are you into core issues?
HILLARY CLINTON: We really are, Christiane. And I have to say, it's been impressive to see the two leaders engage so seriously so early on what are the core issues. But these talks are already into very sensitive and important areas.
CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR: President Obama has said that given the talks going in a constructive way, Israel should continue the moratorium on settlements. Do you believe that that will happen?
HILLARY CLINTON: Well, that certainly is our hope. Now we've also said that we'll support an agreement that is reached between the parties. It took a lot of political capital for Prime Minister Netanyahu to achieve this moratorium. It had never been done before. And I, rightly I think, gave him credit for it about a year ago here in Jerusalem. At the same time, it's been in effect for the time that it was set for and the talks are just starting. So we are working hard to make sure there remains a conducive atmosphere to constructive thought.
CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR: Is there any flexibility you can see, any creative diplomacy that anybody's talked about, to get through this hurdle?
HILLARY CLINTON: They need to keep talking. And each party-- both Israelis and Palestinians need to figure out a way to make that happen.
And I think this President has said, "We are committed. We will stay with you. We will do everything we can to facilitate that." At the end of the day this has to be an agreement between Israelis and Palestinians.
CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR: Who do you think is making the biggest psychological leap, the biggest leap of heart?
HILLARY CLINTON: I think both are. You know, Israel today is under tremendous security pressure and they can look over the horizon and see even more when you've got a country like Iran standing by saying, "We want to wipe you from the face of the Earth and annihilate you." I mean that does concentrate your mind.
And on the Palestinian side, "We've been down this road-- you know, we're-- we're trying to build our own institutions of a new state. You know, can we really afford to not do it?
CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR: Is it the U.S. position to press President Abbas to stay even if the moratorium is lifted?
HILLARY CLINTON: We don't want either party to leave these negotiations or to do anything that causes the other to leave the negotiations.
CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR: Are you urging President Abbas to stay?
HILLARY CLINTON: We are having very-- you know, very clear conversations with each. And I will certainly-- urge him to continue in the negotiations just as I've urged-- Prime Minister Netanyahu. And as President Obama has said, to continue the moratorium.
CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR: Do you believe you've convinced some of the skeptics, for instance the Foreign Minister Avigdor Lieberman, who you also spoke with. Have you convinced him that this two state solution, this protest, is the right one?
HILLARY CLINTON: I don't claim to convince someone whose views are are very different from that position. I think that he and many Israelis are quite skeptical, just as many Palestinians are quite skeptical. But I asked them, "What's the alternative? I mean what is the alternative?"
CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR: Can we move on to Iran? Can I first ask you, what is your reaction to the release of Sarah Shourd?
HILLARY CLINTON: Great relief. I-- I was so-- so pleased that this young woman was able to come home. I want-- the other two young Americans-- Josh and Shane, to come home as well. But as a mother, I've met with their mothers and I just can't even imagine how painful the experience that they themselves have had inside prison, but then of course the pain that their families feel. So thankfully she'll-- she'll be given a chance to be reunited now.
CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR: Will there be any further talks at any time soon on the nuclear issue? Is there any date, any agreement from the Iranians to meet in a P5 Plus One?
HILLARY CLINTON: Well, we thought that they were open to that. And we certainly had-- indicated our readiness to meet. Now at the United Nations next week I will be meeting with my counterpart for the P5 Plus One to discuss where matters stand, but as we're speaking right now I know of no meeting that the Iranians have agreed to attend.
CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR: On the one hand you say that you're grateful that Iran released Sarah Shourd as a humanitarian gesture. You need to do diplomacy through the P5 Plus One on the nuclear issue. On the other hand, in your speech and in your comments at the Council on Foreign Relations, you said that it's a country morphing into a military dictatorship. Explain that?
HILLARY CLINTON: Well, Christiane, I'm concerned about what I see going on. And I am of course grateful and appreciative that Sarah was released and want to see not only her two compatriots but other Americans who are held without cause released as well. And we are concerned about the nuclear program.
But what we also see happening is increasing power exercised by the military, by the revolutionary guard and by other militia and military entities. And I know that that's a concern of people inside Iran. We read reports coming out of Iran. And it is something that would be even more distressing for the Iranian people.
You know, I have grave disagreements with the Iranian Revolution, but the early advocates of it said this would be a republic. It would be an Islamic republic, but it would be a republic. Then we saw a very flawed election and we've seen the elected officials turn for the military to enforce their power.
And a lot of Iranians, even those who stayed, even those who were originally sympathetic are starting to say, "This is not what we signed up for." And I can only hope that there will be some effort inside Iran, by responsible civil and religious leaders to, take hold of the apparatus of the state.
CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR: Let me ask you what the United States can do, as you say, to support the people of Iran? You know, during the Cold War, as you know so well, the Helsinki Accords was the framework by which the United States pressed the Soviet Union on human rights while still negotiating on arms control.
HILLARY CLINTON: Right.
CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR: Why is it the United States today does not have a framework or any sustained intention of pressing Iran on human rights while still trying to figure out the nuclear situation? We keep hearing that officials don't want to upset the diplomatic apple cart?
HILLARY CLINTON: No, I don't think that's it at all. I-- I mean-- we have spoken out on human rights. We have done the best we could to support those inside through trying to open up access to telecommunications. So we are very much in favor of and speaking out on behalf of individual cases and more generally the human political civil rights of Iranians.
And, remember, when President Obama came into office he extended his hand. I mean very clearly and quite unprecedentally to the Iranian leadership and said, "We would be willing to have a diplomatic engagement with you." I think the sanctions that have been endorsed and now are being implemented by the international community, you know, demonstrates our engagement because, you know, we've said to the Iranians all along, "We have two tracks. We have the pressure track and we have the engagement, diplomatic track." And we still remain open to that diplomacy. But it's been very clear that the Iranians don't want to engage with us. And the final point I would make is, you know, we are trying to be effective as we help those inside Iran. We get-- and I meet with Iranian experts. And we get different advice. We get some who say, you know, "Full speed ahead. Don't worry about it. Just say whatever you have to say." Others who say, "Don't do that. This is a very delicate balance." So we try to walk that line.
CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR: Does it concern you that so many Iranians after the election -- so many of the protesters -- really weren't sure whether the Obama administration was on their side and to this day remain unsure. Iranians inside Iran?
HILLARY CLINTON: Well, I-- I don't know how that could be because we made it very clear that we supported the legitimate efforts of the Iranian people to protest and demonstrate against a flawed election. We made it very clear to the Iranians that we thought that they had not only conducted an illegitimate election, but counter to their own stated and professed laws and constitution.
So we made it very clear. But we also knew that the worst thing for those protesting was for them to be seen as stooges of the United States. So, again, what we've tried to do is to stand up for the human rights of every person, most particularly those brave Iranians, you know, lawyers and activists and others, who are standing up and saying to the regime, "No, you have to fulfill the promises you yourselves have made about what we should expect," without undermining their efforts.
Now it's very delicate and I-- you know, we-- you know, some days we get it right and some days maybe we could do better. But our bottom line is, you know, we think the Iranian people deserve so much more than what they are now being given. And we are worried about the direction we see Iran headed.
CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR: The sanctions -- President Ahmadinejad has said the sanctions are, quote, "Pathetic -- worse than a used handkerchief." Do you think they have any possibility of actually affecting their nuclear behavior?
HILLARY CLINTON: Well, first, I think they have-- and-- and will continue to affect their behavior. In fact, you know-- former President Rafsanjani said just the other day, "These are serious. They need to be taken seriously." He was in-- in effect criticizing his government because of comments like that.
That yes, they're biting. And we hear that from many in the region and beyond. And in fact the information we're getting is that the Iranian regime is quite worried about the impact on their banking system, on their economic growth because they've already encountered some tough economic times. And this is, you know, making it more costly.
Sanctions are a tool. They're not an end in themselves. And, you know, we would very much like to see Iran return to the P5 Plus One forum where they were last present a year ago October, to talk about their nuclear program. We would like to see them once again permit full IAEA inspections.
We would like to see them taking the offer that has been made by us and others to talk about a broad range of issues like their support for terrorism. Hamas, Hezbollah, et cetera. So we stand ready to engage with Iran. And that's really the message that I would like to send to the Iranians. Is that you know, there's a way out of the sanctions. There's a way out of increasing opprobrium from the international community.
And there should be a way out of this takeover of their political system and a threat to their dual system of elected and clerical leadership, because when you empower a military as much as they have to rely on them to put down legitimate protests and demonstrations, you create a momentum and unleash forces that you do not know where they will end up. And so we think that now is the time for the Iranian leadership to engage seriously.
CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR: Secretary Clinton, thank you very much for joining us.