Iran: Five Expatriate Intellectuals Issue “The Demands of the Green Movement”
Posted by Scott Lucas in Middle East & Iran
Five Iranian intellectuals living overseas — Abdolkarim Soroush, Akbar Ganji, Mohsen Kadivar, Abdolali Bazargan, and Ataollah Mohajerani — have followed Mir Hossein Mousavi’s recent 5-point statement with a declaration of 10 demands to be met by the Iranian Government:
1. Resignation of Mr. Mahmoud Ahmadinejad, renewal of the election under the supervision of the independant organs. Cancellation of the Guardian Council’s oversight and establishment of an independant election
commission.
The Latest from Iran (4 January): Watching and Debating
2. Release of all political prisoners and prisoners of conscience. Prosecution of those involved in murders and torture of recent months in a public court of law with retribution to the victims and their families.
3. Freedom of press and all audio-visual media. Cancellation of censorship, banning of newspapers, filtering of internet. Expansion of satellite services and acceptance of private TV channels. Expulsion of those who
put out fraudulent lies over recent events.
4. Recognition of the activities of political parties, student movement, women’s movement, non-government organisations and civil society, and labor unions, with the right to assembly.
5. Independence of universities and their administrations. Expulsion of military forces from the campuses. Purge of the illegal Cultural Revolution Council.
6. Persecution of torturers and murderers for recent crimes.
7. Independence of the judiciary, with its head an elected official. Cancellation of all illegal special courts.
8. Expulsion of all military forces and law enforcement from the political, economic, and cultural scene.
9. Independence of the religious establishment from the government and administration.
10. All high level positions in the country to be elected by the people, with term limits and accountability.
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Neither this manifesto nor Mousavi’s can possibly be accepted by the regime. That is obvious here (the last item is obviously not compatible with their, um, understanding of velayat-e-fagih), but it is no less true of Mousavi’s proposal. If Iran allowed free speech everyone would know how widely hated Khamenei, the Pasdaran, and the Baseej are; if it allowed free assembly millions of Greens would clog Tehran in an instant. Even if Mousavi dropped the demand for a re-vote, people would both _know_ A’jad lost, and _say_ he lost, even if Mousavi didn’t. They can cling to power while allowing their opponents free expression? Not remotely, and they know it. Positive noises from the ‘principleists’ are nothing but the doomed hope that the Green movement will accept some meaningless ‘compromise’ that changes nothing.
The least the Greens can accept is more than the regime can give. The zero-sum is here to stay.
[...] in pochi punti è stato diffuso da cinque intellettuali iraniani residenti all’estero. Su questo blog brit-americano trovate il testo. Ci sono alcune cose facilmente realizzabili anche da questo regime – [...]
These guys as well as Mousavi have missed the 2 most important points people are demanding:
1. Dissolution of Islamic Republic as form of government including but not limited to elimination of Velayat-e- faghih, assembly of experts, expediency council, etc.
2. Nullification of constitution of Islamic republic and draft of a new constitution by legal experts and its ratification by people, one person one vote.
John,
I do not think either Mousavi or this group is presenting their points or demands for negotiation purpose. This, as I see it, a shout to the regime that it is time to go quietly into the dust of history. And if you do that people may spare your life.
They know darned well that regime will laugh at them but they also know that sooner or later people will have the last laugh.
I saw Mousavi’s 5 points as a way of distancing himself from Green Movement. He really cannot handle what the movement has become. Mousavi was looking for another Khatami or Rafsanjani era and he soon learned people saying “did that and done with it.” Furthermore, he saw the brutality of this regime up-close and personal by assassination of his nephew. Regime sent him a message and he got it. In my view his 5 points was a graceful departure from the battle he cannot lead to victory.
Megan, I believe this is what Iranian expats are demanding. People’s demands within Iran are more pragmatic.
Anthony,
I am listening to Iranians in Iran every day. Sorry, I cannot agree with your assessment.
@Anthony
Fully agree…
Very interesting. Before commenting on substance, surely someone could kindly provide a verifiable link to the actual statement? (in farsi and/or english) Thanks.
[...] Demands of the Green Movement Iran: Five Expatriate Intellectuals Issue “The Demands of the Green Movement” | Enduring… Abdolkarim Soroush, Akbar Ganji, Mohsen Kadivar, Abdolali Bazargan, and Ataollah Mohajerani — [...]
Hmmmm….. pardon my doubts here, but this seems too sloppy and not exactly the eloquence we’d expect from the likes of the K, S, M, …. e.g., note #2 — that’d be “prosecution,” not “persecution.” Quite different from the Musavi statement. Again, anybody have a verifiable original — say, from any of the five author’s websites? Or is EA and/or TB somehow the originating source — and we’re to take yr word for it?
Hmmmm….. pardon my doubts here, but this seems bit ragged, not exactly the eloquence we’d expect from the likes of K, S, M, …. e.g., note #2 — that’d be “prosecution,” not “persecution.” Maybe this is just a bad summary translation. On substance, seems rather different from the Musavi statement — which does have much room for “creative” solutions.
Well, it appears Sahimi provides a fuller translation of the demand list via pbs/tb here: (pardon the long link)
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/tehranbureau/2010/01/statement-by-five-religious-intellectuals.html?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+Tehranbureau+%28tehran+bureau%29
Alas, he too does not tell us if he too is just giving us (longer) excerpts, or where to find the original.
Megan,
I think your reading of the Green movement is way off. you seem to be seeing things in their demands that YOU want rather than what THEY have shown they want.
its ok though – that is the point of debate and analysis… we get to have a civil discussion and disagree.
There is no doubt that we here in the west want to see a secular Iran w/o VF and w/o Islam in the driver’s seat ASAP… but as others have said, the movment and its leaders are FAR more realistic and pragmatic than that.
as for these five leaders – each of them have more clout, support, and respect inside the Green movement than any dozen ‘external opposition’ intellectuals and figures combined.
as for your question about the VF… Kadivar and Mohajerani have called for a term-limited or elected VF for a while now… and though that does not sit well with you or me, we have to keep in mind that at the very least 20 to 30% of the Iranian people are arch-conservative religionists… and that even if the Green movement comes to power in some fashion- it will depend on many of the same people inside IRGC, Basij, and Government that form the core of the beuracracy to continue ’serving’ the country.
THAT is the essence of a democratic system… to allow people who disagree with you a seat at the table… but under an umbrella of ‘core’ principles (outlined by these 10 demands and Mousavi’s 5 points).
anyways – just wanted to say that though I share your dreams for a future Iran, in my opinion, your prescription is not one that is shared by the majority of actual people on the ground.
I agree with Green Lurker. This movement is about establishing civil & human rights and the rule of law. The constitution and institutions will evolve from that. For the 1st time in our history it’s not about any one individual but about rights
Activist,
Did you by any chance post comments on EA with different name in the past? For example as “Somebody”?
I agree with Pic, this is about establishing human rights for all Iranians. Once that is in place, form of government and rule of justice spring from that free expression. Both Mousavi and the Expat Intellectuals have made good points in their respective statements. May more voices be heard.
9. Independence of the religious establishment from the government and administration.
http://www.iranunfiltered.com/journal/2010/1/4/demands-of-the-green-movement.html
The blog iran unfiltered makes a good point about the list of these demands which I hope many realize (and I am very hopeful Iran will end up being) a country where Iran is just a republic, and there is a separation of religion and governance. Thus demand number 9 would be the end of Velayte Fagih (rightfully so in my opinion). Such would even mean that even a term limited version of VF should not be implemented as well – since”religious establishment” would still not be independent of governance and administration”
Picard,
Apologies for basic error in forgetting to post link to original. Now corrected.
S.
The two declarations are steps in the good direction.
What Iranians have to deal with is no velvet revolution, because the regime is fighting to its last. The regime is somewhere between Ceausescu and Hitler, I hope closer to the first.
Therefore, there is small chance of a centralized uprising (revolution), because the repression is too harsh. The revolution organization(s) have to have horizontal structures, as those are more resilient. For horizontal structures, a programmatic document is vital, for everyone to have the same worksheet.
These documents are incomplete, but they are steps in the right direction.
A too efficient repression is a recipe for a violent revolution, as Ceausescu and the Czar proved. What Mousavi basically tells the government is: negotiate with us because the next ones won’t, the same thing Walesa told Jaruzelski. Alas, Khamenei and Ahmadinejad are more alike to Ceausecu and sooner or later they may enjoy his fate…
It the regime will crush the revolution, it will use the natural resources of Iran to dominate and “purify” the country, poisoning it and ruining it. It will eventually then reach the dustbin like all of its kind did, but after destroying a magnificent culture in the process…
I would add two points to this statement
1 The set up of a “Truth and Reconciliation” commission, like in post-apartheid South Africa
2 The abolition of death penalty
Rezvan, I’m not disputing your point but I want to clarify your historic exemplw. After 1789 the French instituted an empire (Napoleon) in 1800, followed by a monarchy in 1815, then a different dynasty in 1830, then a 2nd republic in 1848,then a 2nd empire in 1852 and finally back to a republic in 1870. There can be terrible republics and democratic monarchies, or vice versa. What’s important is for people to be able to vote for their regime and constitution of choice.
To those who think my post at 12:06 was my personal desire and was not reflecting desire of those in Iran.
May be you can explain the meaning of “estghlal, azadi, Jomhori Irani” (independence, freedom, Republic of Iran) chants in streets of Iran. Are people not asking for a different form of government that does not include Velayet-e- Faghih or elimination of clerics from government business??? Are they not saying the current system of government, Jomhori Islami (Islamic Republic), is flawed and must be scrapped? If not, then can some please explain to me what do people in Iran mean when they say Jomhori Irani?????????????????
Why is it that every time we run out of argument or we disagree with a point of view we label people as “Expat”? Well, who are the expats? Do they not care for the country once they called home? Do they not want their countrymen and women in Iran enjoy the same freedom they enjoy and have the same opportunities they have, and live without fear of persecution and prosecution? Does an expat wish ill for those he/she left behind? Aren’t Expats smart and educated (many to the hill)? Can they not contribute to the future of a country they did not want to abandon? Then why in the world we try to exclude them at this very sensitive time in history?
Lastly, I find it ironic that repressed Iranians in Iran have more guts than many of us who live in the free world. Iranians in Iran look the bullet in the eye and shout “Jomhori Irani” and “marg bar dictator”. We on the other hand concoct all kind of justifications why tweaking a broken system just a bit or replacing Dictator A with Dictator B or Mullah X with Mullah Y or Mr. C with Mr.D will be a whole lot better than scrapping the system and starting all over again.
I can hear you guys wanting to convince me that I just do not get it. Yes, you are right I do not get it because you said it, I am an “Expat”.
Dust-e iran,
How can civil rights and human rights be resorted when there are no constitutional and legal provisions for them? And even with the constitutional provisions, how could civil rights and human rights be observed if you have a police state or a fascist government that does not operate within the law? Are we not looking upside down at this picture?
Megan,
You said in post 6 that you listen to Iranians in Iran everyday. I think that got lost in the shuffle. You’re one of the EA readers who regularly listens to the Iranian callers on epersian.com, right? Maybe you have other contacts thereas well. Can you tell us a bit more about who you listen/talk to in Iran – what kind of people they are, where they live, what social-economic class they belong to, their age, etc. ?
Hi Catherine,
I listen to callers from inside and outside Iran who call in to a 2-hour daily political program. I used to take notes and log words of each caller from inside Iran in order to better understand the nature of political atmosphere there. I stopped taking notes at the end of October because voices were merging into one. All callers were expressing disregard and anger toward the entire political/government infrastructure in Iran. I read my notes today in order to reply to your questions regarding demographic.
Please keep in mind the data regarding socioeconomic class is my assailment based on callers’ sophistication and articulation style and communication skills.
I would say callers include lower middle class, educated middle class, blue colure workers, and white colure office workers. Breakdown between male and female callers is 50/50. The age group is from early 20’s to 60’s (callers older than 60 usually are from outside Iran). Calls from Iran have been from Tehran, Isfahan, Ahvaz, Dezfol, Rasht, Qom, Karaj, Mashhad, Shiraz, Sanandj. Most callers are from small to large cities. I do not remember any calls from countryside (rural areas). I am not surprised by that; access to a phone line at home and the expense of placing an international call may be a factor. I do not remember callers stating they were from non-Muslim religious minorities (Christians, Jews, and Bahai). There are, however, calls from Sunni Muslim minorities who do state their religious affiliations. Calls from non-Muslim minorities are for the most part from outside Iran. Ethnic minorities inside Iran are among the callers.
During major even/protest call volume is very high. Ratio of calls from inside Iran to outside Iran in recent protests have been 45/55. During summer, however, this ratio was 60/40 in days leading to a major protest and during protest. I believe (though cannot be certain) the drop in volume of calls from inside Iran may have to do with the fear of eavesdropping and scrutiny of call records by the regime. The expense of placing an international call may also be a factor especially when you have to remain in queue until it is your turn to be heard.
I wish there was a way to get funding for an 800 phone number for this radio station. I am certain volume of calls from inside Iran will go up sharply if callers had access to an 800 line. Calls to an 800 line in addition to being free will not show on one’s phone records.
i have a problem with the 2nd demand.
it says :
“2. Release of all political prisoners and prisoners of conscience. Prosecution of those involved in murders and torture of recent months in a public court of law with retribution to the victims and their families.”
why prosecute those involved in murders and torture of RECENT months and not entire 30 years?
at least investigating and clarify what happened to the prisoners and victims of the regime from 1979 to present time.
I might know the answer why.
we should not forget that all of these so called intellectuals were in the system and one by one were directly responsible at least some of the misery that the regime brought to its people.
I would suggest these people (makhmalbaf, ganji, sazgara, soroush,nabavi and the list goes on and on) show their good will and sincerity by showing at least remorse for their involvement of creation of the suppressive regime.
I realize to be able to move on we should forgive but it doesn’t mean we should forget what happened.
I might anger some people but well we owe this to the mothers, fathers, brothers, sisters and children of those who fallen fighting this regime before 2008.
onlymeandmyideas,
“An eye for an eye leaves everybody blind”- Mahatma Ghandi
The history will never forget the high price we have paid to forge our freedom , independence and identity through the last 100 years . May be the time has come for us to be stronger than our pain and turn the page to a more glorious chapter where tolerance and wisdom lead the path ?
eye for eye system won’t work!
we should forgive, definitely but it is hard to forgive when there is not apologies, and it won’t make it easier if the apologies are sincere.
some of them are not only not showing any remorse but also they dismiss the relevance of what happened.
( including nabavi: dismissing the whole massacres and saying that massacre of 1367 is no more relevant :
http://www.peykeiran.com/Content.aspx?ID=8317)
don’t you think it is fair? do the victims families deserve that?
I don’t want to open up an old wound , but as we all know unity is needed, and it is needed now more than ever and to be able to unite we should reconcile
because whether we like it or not there are some unsolved issues.
it is needless to say that people might forgive (if you ask for it) but they will never forget.
As an Iranian, I agree with Megan.
My father, and two of my uncles are dual citizens of Iran and US, and my father spends most of his time in Iran (until recently). My two other uncles, and two other aunts, as well as many friends and family are currently living in Tehran, just outside of Azadi square. I call them and hear the shouting from the streets, my cousin was beat in one of the protests. These are not people who I have just recently started listening to because of a shite election. These are people I have listened to my whole life, and they want Khameni, Ahmadinejad and the Islamic Republic OUT. There is no “pragmatic” about it.
What videos are you watching? Because the videos I am watching I hear Yare Dabestani, essentially the theme song to the 1979 Revolution being shouted from the lungs of students and citizens of all ages. I heard the quiet rumble of marg bar diktator, and the braver -before unheard of- shouts of MARG BAR KHAMENI! I hear the growing roar of Allah Akbar from the rooftops at night. I see flowers thrown, and then stones, and then police stations set on fire.
These are not a call for a “pragmatic” solution. These are not a call for a recount. These are not a call to “leave things as they are – we’re fine like this.” This is clearly and without argument (in Iran at least) a call to revolution. Denying this is an insult to these people and the movement they stand for.
We had simply hoped that Mousavi would win, we spread the word, and sent people to the polls, and crossed our fingers. But when they declared Ahmadinejad winner before the polls had even closed, we were heartbroken. This is when we wanted a recount. When the regime bared it’s teeth at this, and showed just how bloodthirsty and power hungry it was over it’s own citizens, this is when we realized it had to end.
پيروزي براي مردم
Azam,
Thank you. Please comment on EA more often and share what you hear from Iran. We need to hear from people like you who have firsthand information. And Please tell your family in Iran that they are not alone; people across the globe are watching and supporting them. Hope to hear from you more often.
From this day forward I would start or finish my comments by saying I am a Mohareb and I am mighty proud of it.
@ Megan
I just now found your answer to my question. Thanks so much for going through the trouble of re-reading your notes to do so! I’ve copied your post to keep as future reference. In 2008, I heard explicit anti-regime and anti-theocracy sentiments not only from the demographics you mention and in cities, but also from labourers and fishermen, and in small towns. In 2009 in the first half of June, representatives of all the same demographics you mention with whom we had contact were planning to vote against AN. That still doesn’t say anything about absolute numbers, but it does indicate how widespread the opposition to the status quo is (and actually has been for some time).
This is an edited copy of post at 11:14
Hi Catherine,
I listen to callers from inside and outside Iran who call in to a 2-hour daily political program. I used to take notes and log words of each caller from inside Iran in order to better understand the nature of political atmosphere there. I stopped taking notes at the end of October because voices were merging into one. All callers were expressing disregard and anger toward the entire political/government infrastructure in Iran. I read my notes today in order to reply to your questions regarding demographics.
Please keep in mind the data regarding socioeconomic class is my assailment based on callers’ sophistication and articulation style and communication skills.
I would say callers include lower middle class, educated middle class, blue-collar workers, and white-collare office workers. Breakdown between male and female callers is 50/50. The age group is from early 20’s to 60’s (callers older than 60 usually are from outside Iran). Calls from Iran have been from Tehran, Isfahan, Ahvaz, Dezfol, Rasht, Qum, Karaj, Mashhad, Shiraz, Sanandj. Most callers are from small to large cities. I do not remember any calls from countryside (rural areas). I am not surprised by that; access to a phone line at home and the expense of placing an international call may be a factor. I do not remember callers stating they were from non-Muslim religious minorities (Christians, Jews, and Bahai). There are, however, calls from Sunni Muslim minorities who do state their religious affiliations. Calls from non-Muslim minorities are for the most part from outside Iran. Ethnic minorities inside Iran are among the callers.
During major even/protest call volume is very high. Ratio of calls from inside Iran to outside Iran in recent protests has been 45/55. During summer, however, this ratio was 60/40 in days leading to a major protest and during protest. I believe (though cannot be certain) the drop in volume of calls from inside Iran may have to do with the fear of eavesdropping and scrutiny of call records by the regime. The expense of placing an international call may also be a factor especially when you have to remain in queue until it is your turn to be heard.
I wish there was a way to get funding for an 800 phone number for this radio station. I am certain volume of calls from inside Iran will go up sharply if callers had access to an 800 line. Calls to an 800 line in addition to being free will not show on one’s phone records.
I have been, silently, following this forum for a while. One must admit that the forum enjoys a substantial degree of civility, as well as sophisticated and competent skills in social observance.
However, the very foundation of the forum’s discussions and exchanges has remained dialectic, i.e. rhetorical in its Platonic form: devoid of philosophical substance: rooted in the common understanding; akin to Seinfeld’s (the show) dialects and philosophy.
Everyone gently, skilfully, almost gingerly dances around the substance-the tangible-the machination of the situation/oppression and side step it altogether. It is dishonest to believe and preach that thirty years of oppression was manufactured by and has been maintained by the clerical class and a few hundred thousand goons.
The forum has failed to investigate and name the forces that manufactured and have been sustaining the oppression: Iranian people.
Contrary to the collective understanding of the forum people are not as innocent as they are made to be. Without millions of foot soldiers Hitler would have remained…..and could have not carried out…..
I would like to remind the forum of the role that the Merchant class played in establishing the oppression. The working classes of the southern Tehran and the working classes of every other city played no lesser roles. All the while the very small and pretend-middle-classes were shorting the markets and taking advantage of the chaos.
Nothing has changed!
The Merchant class is still financing the oppression; the working classes carry the clubs and the very small and pretend middle classes are shorting the market and taking advantage of the chaos.
Thoughts?
Edward
“The forum has failed to investigate and name the forces that manufactured and have been sustaining the oppression: Iranian people.”
I agree with you completely in this – and have been saying as much for the past 6 months. I am not perhaps quite so elegant and “straight to the point” as you.
I have been watching Iran for the past 30 years. I have seen the Iranian people chanting “Death to >>>>” . I have seen their women all dressed in black. I have seen the fanatical (and fantastic) expressions of religion and wondered where it was all leading. I had very few good thoughts or sympathy towards the Iranian people – and thought of the biblical injunctions “for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap” and “”They sow the wind, and they reap the whirlwind”"
Now however- I do believe that a fresh wind from another direction has started to blow. Now I have seen the beauty and courage of the young Iranian men and women. Perhaps the nation of Iran can still save itself? In the case of Germany and Japan (and their people!) , change was forced upon them – with their unconditional surrender. I don’t believe that the western world is willing to sacrifice it’s young for this nation that has placed itself into the hands of evil. They are going to have to do it for themselves.
Barry
Dear Edwar, Barry, I like to chime in here:
I agree with you that it is naive to solely blame mullahcracy for the oppression Iranian people have endured. Must of this oppression stems from the stoic ways of our culture, much of it is self-imposed and works at the very level of family and even individual.
However, it is imprudent to draw any form of analogy between Iran and Germany/Japan!
This “courage” that is impressing many a westerner observer, is again the manifestation of the same socio-politico-economic FRUSTRATION that has brought people in confrontation to the government.
By an large, the Iranians ignore their governments, ignore the laws, and live an order that stems from the culture. Peace and order in Iran is not kept by ts police or its law, but by the humanity that is commonsense.
Let me give examples:
It is commonsense to feed the poor in Iran, if they knock on your door at lunch time–you give a plate of food to the beggar, to eat in front of your door, and then leave the plate, ring the bell to say a prayer of thanks and leave.
It is commonsense to respect and treat with courtesy your Bahai neighbor, although for the past 150 years the “establishments” have been calling the Bahais Najes. It is common sense to bring “Ashura nazri’ to your Christian neighbor, because neighborhood transcends religious practice.
It is commonsense to be humble, to bow to your guest–even if he is your enemy.
It is commonsense to break the law when you have to save someone’s life, and go against the traffic.
It is commonsense to forgive; to be generous, to want the “better” for the elder for the ill.
In Iran, life and humanity cpme before all; and THIS is precisely why people retracted after the first wave of fascism unravelled in the aftermath of the revolution:
A WAR WAS IMPOSED ON IRAN!
And in war, especially an unjust one, when your country’s getting chemically bombed and your birthday parties smashed with American/German/French/Russian/British nods; you are left with no choice but to let those who are crazy-enough to be inspired by FAITH, to go ahead and walk on Western minefields of Saddam to their death.
THE WORLD abandoned the Iranian people 30 years ago; and handed them to Khomeini. the world, who shook hands with Khomeini and derailed Iran’s revolution out of fear of Iran falling in the communist or Nationalist hands is to be held responsible!
So, to a great extend, I feel offended when people comment on the courage of Iranians now; and forget that the FACT why IRGC has become so powerful, is because it was the IRGC that was the BRAVE-HEART when these courage-stimulating Western gentleman were suffering khomeiniphobia! It is because of Israeli and American THREATS and 8 years of UNJUST war that we are now forced to revolt against teh militarization of our government.
For us, the affront is not only the autocracy at home, but also the hypocrisy abroad! These two forces, have worked for EVER, to kill us, oppress us, us the iranian people. And we have stood tall, and we will for ever.
forgive errors like
Must=most; by an large=by and large …etc :)
@ Gloumdalclitch The set up of a “Truth and Reconciliation” commission, like in post-apartheid South Africa
EXCELLENT point.
This is in fact one of those ideas that Ganji has brought up in an article he posted after that statement.
I understand that there are a lot of Iranians who hold violent grudges about the atrocities of the IRI, but i trust that in general Iranians are not a bloodthirsty vengeful nation–because as children, we are taught that “forgiveness” holds a higher reward (both social and spiritual) than revenge.
What iran needs is an ABOLISHING of hierarchy; and ‘affiliation apartheid’–call it nepotism if you will. In a very ironic way, it is Ahmadinejad who has pulled the ax on this traditional modus operandi in Iran!
By attacking Hashemi and his children during the debate, now by arresting clergy, by attempting stripping Sane’i of his religious title, by insulting the families of Khomeini and the families of some of the revolutiona and the war heros; by assassinating Mousavi’s nephew and issuing police statements that “being a member of this and that family is not ground for immunity”, Iran’s ruling literature is undergoing MAJOR revolution. The fact that the green movement is a “network” based and not a top-down (as is Khamenei’s structure of power) nor even a bottom-up (as is Ahmadinejad’s) kind of a hierarchy makes it highly resilient.
Thanks for the well thought and sociologically based reply; I could have not hoped for a better one. You have mentioned at least half a dozen points which worth a second look. But the most important one which I think is at the root of the current “dictatorship of the masses” is the nuance cultural principles which you mentioned a few.
In Africa the individual’s loyalty is first to the tribe, then the shaman, then the family members, and none to laws. The North American natives are fore mostly loyal to the environment, trees, rocks, rivers, buffalo and such other. Family and tribe members are only served if their interests do not contradict the living land. Laws to them are those that are made or legislated to protect the interests of the environment and those that are not are unceremoniously disregarded.
Arab’s loyalties are to the tribe and their elders first. To them religion and the health of the nation are far more important than law. Japans’ are to their ethics inherited from the samurais. Chinese’ are to the family and nothing else. Indians’ to their multiples of gods, then family and again law is nowhere to be seen.
The dichotomy you have identified is one of laws and common sense.
Common sense is exactly that “Common” and “Sense”. The former is a collective which its merits are defined by its lowest common denominator and the later is a collection of that collective which is also defined by its lowest common denominator. If you are proposing that the Iranian nation is governed by a collection of common senses; I agree with you, as well as reminding you that that is exactly what I understand to be at the root of the current problems. A society based and governed by common sense is a vulnerable and fragile society.
If you propose that Iranian nation has for ever been governed through common sense; I strongly disagree with you. I can name dozens and dozens of philosophers who through the ages developed sound and valid principles based on reason and enveloped in laws which have been guiding the nation for a few thousand years.
Common sense is at the root of this “dictatorship by masses”. When you assert that “It is commonsense to break the law when you have to save someone’s life, and go against the traffic.” You are condemning the validity of the very sense which is governing your life. By going against the traffic you are violating the most basic rights of many thousands drivers and passengers as well as endangering their lives. Imagine you are driving to your work, on the correct side of the road and suddenly out of the left field comes a truck or a car; smashes into you and kill either you or some of your family. Now imagine the entire nation follows the same common sense which allows you to drive on the wrong side of the road. Than imagine that thousands upon thousands of these common senses are governing Iran.
To add insult to injury is the fact that common senses differ from one person to another, even though minutely. But at the end of 60 or 70 million variation of these senses you are most certainly have set yourself for failure.
Laws are as important to humanity, as you call it, as it is air, food and water. Without laws written on papers and understood by people society is impossible.
One may argue that common sense is a simpler version of statue laws and that not everyone needs to be well versed in laws. That is only possible if there are strong and un-corrupt institutions administering simpler version of national and local laws.
I like to remind you that the loyalty of an Iranian start at his family and end with the nation, with religion, friends and the poor somewhere in between. Never have I seen or sensed any loyalty to laws and unless and until the nation start respecting its laws there shall not be democracy, human right, appropriate justice system, free speech, economic growth, global acceptance, and progress.
I remember during the 1979 revolution people used to say “anything is better than the shah and this regime”. They got something considerably worst. Please note that autocracy whether clerical or monarchical has governed Iran for the past 2600 years. Why?
I suggest that there are only a few alternative to autocracy. One is dictatorship, which Iran has been enjoying for the past 30 or so years; though not through the traditional form of it, but through a modern variation which was popularised by the 1917 Russian revolution (dictatorship of the masses); Roman practiced “direct democracy” but latter fell off the cliff. There are other alternatives as well but I suspect that you would not approve of any, for none would deliver and protect human right, free speech, freedom of association, equality before the law, taxation through representation, protection against arbitrary arrests and persecution, economic freedom and such other rights and privileges.
What you need is a functioning, fare and competent government which grant and guarantees these rights and privileges. Why you are not getting it; is because the nation does not produce such philosophies, persons and institutions.
A far off village does not have a doctor because it does not produce one. It does not have engineers because it has no schools. A president, a law maker, or a just judge does not grow under the bushes. They are born, nurtured, taught and respected. They learn through the burden of social expectations and by seeing examples. Iran’s past and the current leaders are not behaving out of my expectations. Indeed and compared to others such as Mao, Stalin, George W Bush and Franco these bunch are mild and temperate. They govern through their common sense i.e. first mind the family, than the friend, than the religion than….
Name a single law enabling you, or a Russian, or a Chinese to bring impropriety charges against the head of the government. I can name no less than a thousand of them which an individual could drag the American president, a British prime minister or an Australian prime minister into courts.
Unfortunately you have not persuaded me successfully. I still and firmly believe that the Iranian government is the product of Iranian culture and social structure and it is a sample representative of its people.
WOW!!!!
Edward and Naj – I think I am out of my depth here. I have to think about your two posts – and I will be back. Right now I am cooking dinner for my wife and I – so I need some time.
Edward – you are a breath of fresh air to this Forum.
Barry
Edward
I think that I understand all that you are saying. There are countries in the world that appear to me to be stagnant. What they are today, they will be in 100, 200 years, 500 years time. I will not attempt to name them – because they are so many!! I don’t know why this is – I believe that probably they hold themselves back. Their cultures, their religions – simply prevent them from moving on into the 21st century.
It doesn’t have to be this way. My own country – a very young country – but a VERY old country at the same time – is an example.
Before 1788, Australia was populated by about 300,000 aboriginal people. These stone age nomadic people had inhabited the world’s oldest continent for more than 10,000 years ( it is said now 50,000 years). Bear in mind that the western year 1788 is only a little over 200 years ago.
Between 1788 and 1850 the English sent over 162,000 convicts to Australia in 806 ships. These convicts (and their Guards) were the very dregs of British society – my GGGG – grandfather was one of them.
But, in spite of this start to the modern country of Australia, the Institutions left by the British have allowed us to create a vibrant and democratic society – not perfect by any means and with much wrongdoings as time went by. Now, since about 1950 – new generations of non Anglo-Saxon immigrants are populating the cities.
So – is Iran able to move into the 21st century?? Will it’s people and their society, their religions allow it?? or will they be one of these countries that I allude to that will remain unchanged for the next x hundred years.??
Naj
“For us, the affront is not only the autocracy at home, but also the hypocrisy abroad! These two forces, have worked for EVER, to kill us, oppress us, us the iranian people. And we have stood tall, and we will for ever.”
I believe that perhaps you are also guilty of not allowing Iran to proceed – because you are always looking to the past to find blame for your current situation.
There is no doubt that Western Governments have interfered with Iran in the past – and it has partly affected your current situation – but change can only come from the future, not from the remembrance of the past. ( Else I would still be raging about my poor GGGG Grandfather being sentenced to 14 years transportation to the end of the world in 1831 – simply for stealing one small sheep !! :) )
Barry