Tuesday
Dec302008
Gaza Update (5 a.m. Israel; 10 p.m. Eastern US): This is "All-Out War"
Tuesday, December 30, 2008 at 2:50
Latest Updates: Gaza: This is an (Israeli) War of Choice
and Gaza: The Futility of the Israeli War
Israel's bombardment of Gaza has entered a fourth day, with ministerial offices targets and the Islamic University hit again. At least 350 Palestinians have been killed, and hospitals are overwhelmed with casualties. Four Israelis have been killed by rocket fire.
The UN Secretary-General, Ban Ki-Moon, has now called for a cease-fire. Perhaps most significantly, at least for US-European relations, the British Government is distancing itself from Washington and calling for a cessation of hostilities.
and Gaza: The Futility of the Israeli War
Israel's bombardment of Gaza has entered a fourth day, with ministerial offices targets and the Islamic University hit again. At least 350 Palestinians have been killed, and hospitals are overwhelmed with casualties. Four Israelis have been killed by rocket fire.
The UN Secretary-General, Ban Ki-Moon, has now called for a cease-fire. Perhaps most significantly, at least for US-European relations, the British Government is distancing itself from Washington and calling for a cessation of hostilities.
Reader Comments (13)
I am a muslim from Turkey. Life of muslims and death of muslims,
are (all) for Allah.
I know and believe the fact that Israel is illegal and terorist country.
It [exists] by the way of massacre for to serve the USA in this region.
[The] West and its servant (israel) will continue to kill us
and we will always live and die as a muslim for Allah.
Unto Allah people will all return.
Our people will go to the paradise(Garden) in other world....
ismail,Turkey
Wow, Ismail. Thats so ignorant.
shir what ismael is saying that he will live by allah's rules (allah just means 'the one god' in arabic). And he is saying that we will live as muslims and die as muslims, i think its a very profound statement, except for the fact that isreal controls america.
Ismael, I wish you could see that we("the west") don't want to kill you and we don't wish any harm on you, just as I assume all innocent Muslims like yourself don't wish harm on "us". I live in Canada and am Catholic. When I went to school and now at work, all I have ever learned was to respect other religions and faiths. We are very diverse here and anyone who wishes harm on another, is not looked at in a good light. I think you have been misinformed about us wanting to kill you. It just isn't true. I wish respect for you and your religion. And I'm sure you feel the same. I have a good friend who is Muslim as well and we both learn valuable things from each others beliefs. There will always be racist people in every country, but I wish you could see that the majority of us don't wish you harm and would never kill you. Please remember this and take care.
I wish respect for you and your religion. And I’m sure you feel the same. I have a good friend who is Muslim as well and we both learn valuable things from each others beliefs. There will always be racist people in every country, but I wish you could see that the majority of us don’t wish you harm and would never kill you. Please remember this and take care."
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I think we miss the point here with the issue of racism. The fact is, we of the Western cultural tradition have a habit of placing our values/ideals, traditions, religion, etc. under the microscope - for criticism. The vast majority of the world's cultures do not. We are the exception. The vast majority of the world's cultures do not see other cultures and value systems as having equal worth to their own. They do not because they are ethnocentric. The fact that the West does this actually proves the superiority of the Western cultural tradition -- or at least creates such a perception. We have the political superiority of the natural rights doctrine, which grants us free exercise of reason- aside from the doctrine's core tenets of 'the right to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. Unfortunately, this has come with high price because we have abandoned enthnocentrism. Reason is used to pursue truth. I am not opposed to adopting values and ideas from other cultures if they benefit our society. But I do not believe that all other cultures and their values to be of equal worth.
It is important to note that we exercise a high degree of tolerance on cultures that do not exercise tolerance. But again - that ability itself can create the perception of Western cultural superiority.
In the Muslim world, there is no natural rights doctrine, therefore no freedom to exercise reason in the pursuit of truth. Here is a dialogue between a Christian and a Muslim to illustrate my point.
Q: How much freedom do you have in Muslim countries?
A: [Muslims] will tell you there is no compulsion in religion. I was with the minister of religion of a major country that I will leave unnamed. He was a very courteous man and he was talking about the work they were doing. They had just met in Malaysia about improving the image of Islam. I asked, 'Why do you feel it needs to be improved?' He said, 'Well, September 11. We are often represented as using compulsion in religion.' I said, 'I don't want to be discourteous, but if I were in your country and I were a Muslim, would I be free to disagree with it?' He said, 'Why would you want to do that?' I said, 'No, I am just asking theologically: Would I be free to disbelieve it?' He said, 'Well, these things get more complicated when you deal with a country's laws and all.' I said, 'When you say there is no compulsion in religion, you are looking at one side of the coin, meaning you will never force someone to become what you are. But to have no compulsion means you should not compel somebody to believe something when they want to disbelieve it. That is a very critical test for compulsion.
There is no law in the land where I live, compelling me to [be a Christian]. But in your land, if I chose to disbelieve [Islam], I have to stand before a tribunal of justices and explain it. How can I withstand such intimidation and be honest and not pay for it at the same time? Frankly, he wouldn't give me an answer. I think if Islam is going to rise to the level many moderates want to see it, they will have to take off the heavy foot of compulsion in their own lands. Then it can be a legitimate representation of how many believe.
But the problem is that today's sociologists and other academics (and many clergy) place other cultures' beliefs and practices OUTSIDE the realm of criticism. I think this is mistake.
Personally, I agree with every word you said. I notice that if you criticize other faiths, you are automatically labeled 'racist', but people can say horrible things about Christianity and nobody bats an eye...I just found it so sad to read Ismail's post. He just seemed so convinced that people are out to get him. Seems as though he's being brainwashed...
It comes from the Enlightenment, of which the natural rights doctrine is a product. That's how we have freedom of speech, religion and the press. That's where it comes from. And even though the natural rights of man did not directly address women and slavery in the French Revolution, the natural rights doctrine was responsible in bringing women's rights and the slavery question to the surface in the 19th and 20th centuries. You and I can walk down any street in England with an 'Anglicanism is a lie' sandwich board and we wouldn't get arrested for it. We can walk the streets of Rome with an anti-Catholic "Get the cross out of the crotch" sign.
The problem with the Muslim world and other non-Western cultures is their closedness, their narrowness. As the late philosopher Allan Bloom states, " Only in the Western nations, i.e., those influenced by Greek philosophy, is there some willingness to doubt the indentification of the good with one's own way." Again, the West willingly puts itself under a microscope. I suppose Japan is the other exception. Turning to the West brought about the Meiji Restoration, which enabled the Japanese to modernize in the last 3 decades of the 19th century. They made the leap from the 18th century to the 20th century in just 30 years! It was astounding.
Ismael is from Turkey. Israel and Turkey have a rather normal relationship. His views don't reflect those of the Turkish government. But science and the values of the Enlightenment are largely rejected by people in this part of the world because they see them as a threat to their culture and way of life. So they build walls to keep other cultures and their respective value systems out. Israel is a Jewish state, but it is also a progressive society. Jews were influenced by the Greek mind (while living under the Roman sword) and Greek philosophers were the first people to address the problems of ethnocentrism. Anyway, the peoples of these non-Western cultures (Arabs and such) have to love what they have in order to preserve it. Only by thinking their own things are good can they rest content with them. Even Turks have these fears. Ismael clings to his faith and is probably wary of European cultures and religion-state separation, which is a testy thing in Turkey. How many times has the Turkish military taken action against threats to the secular state from theocratic elements within the civilian government? But even the Christian West had problems...before the Enlightenment.
I think there is beauty to be found in all cultures. There is a lot of beauty to be found in the Arab world and in Eastern traditions and religions (Islam included). You probably agree, but that's the Westerner in us. Thomas Merton was a famous American monk who adopted some contemplative Bhuddist practices into his spiritual life. That's unthinkable in Islam. You can still value your own culture and traditions above all others and be open-minded to others at the same time. Simply adopt the ones that your society stands to benefit from and reject the ones that won't. Islam and the Muslim world need an era of enlightenment. I think it is long overdue.
Quoting myself -- Israel is a Jewish state, but it is also a progressive society. Jews were influenced by the Greek mind (while living under the Roman sword) and Greek philosophers were the first people to address the problems of ethnocentrism.
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The Muslim world hates what Israel stands for....because they fear it. And it is right on their doorstep. They distrust the Europe and North America for the very same reasons.
(edited by moderator)
Dave:-
Again you repeat the same extremely silly propaganda that bush adopts along with all brainwashed right wing. The reason the fanatic right wing, including bush admin, love this argument simply because its hard to prove wrong as you have to go inside the brains of Muslim world. However, its still so extremely silly and dumb and show a high level of ignorance about not only the Muslim world, but also how the whole world run.
Muslims hate Israel for very simple reason, a colonized entity that was built on a stolen land made of the bones of innocent people who are the owners of this land. This entity not only not legitemate and illegal....They caused the suffering of millions and millions of Palestinians, Israel is always thirsty for blood and wars, and destroyed the whole region. For you to understand it, its more like the chinees coming and establishing a country in NY state, because "God promised it to them", and then start killing NY, calling anyone that oppose their master rule as" Terrorist", anyone that resist peacefully of violently .. keep making wars and killing tens of thousands of people, many children and women.. Tell me if this happened in US, how would the American react to the chinees entity in NY? Imagine if "God" promised Bin laden Texas, and the Buddha God promised Chicago to his followers....
Now the Muslim world hates the fact that Israel is blindly supported by the US due to these religous fanatic....who are also motivated by fanatic views of thier version of religion giving a blind eye to whats justice, right and what the international law and common sense say about it..
It absolutely has nothing to do with freedom and democracy and all this crap that bush keep repeating.. there are many countries in the world who have a much better freedom and democracy level than US and loved by the Muslim world for their stands with Human rights and whats right and whats justice..
If the United States today come out and forced Israel to stop the blood bath and took a clear stand that based on respect for international law and Geneva convention of human rights .. the whole Muslim world will go out demonstrating their love for the US..
You guys need to educate yourself .. and stop repeating the silly propaganda of the fanatic propaganda machines of zionist that is so silly and dumb... its a conflict of those who want to enslave people ( Israel) and those refuse but to live in diginity
Here we go again with this mentality that Israel is out to get you. Maybe they did unfair things in the past or even now, I won't pretend to know. But the point is, how can you claim all of 'Israel' shares the same views??? Name some names please. If Israel made wrong choices, then that makes them the same as any other country in the world that have made mistakes. Look at Germany and the Holocaust. Are we going to start saying all Germans are 'bloodthirsty' and that 'Germany' as a whole is bad???? THAT would be dumb (to use your words) And you MUST be joking when you say 'the whole Muslim world will go out demonstrating their love for the US' They will hate them NO MATTER WHAT, unless they transform and become Muslim as well or at least adopt most of their beliefs. You can't even try to deny that, it is TRUE. Maybe YOU are the one who needs to educate yourself...
Anyway, this is just going to turn into a big ugly debate, so we should just agree to disagree...or are you to set in your beliefs for that to even be possible???
We won't get anywhere with them, Amanda. It's a culture of fear. That's why Muslim countries can only exist as monocultural entities. They can't even accept minority groups living in their own territories. The Coptic peoples, the Jews, the Chaldeans, Bahai and others. Yes, Chaldeans still exist....for now. They are all persecuted in the Muslim world. The Orthodox Church is treated terribly in Turkey -- Turkey! Is it any wonder why the Muslim world will never accept Israel?
And as for Sami's preaching on human rights -- Muslim majority countries are the ones that have pushed through the UN resolution on the defamation of religion, attempting to outlaw all criticim of Islam. http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2008/sep/02/us-fights-islamic-anti-defamation-push/
They say they want peaceful coexistence and understanding with the West and issue a proseletyzing document http://www.acommonword.com/ to achieve it!
They issue fatwas against European political cartoonists.
They throw a teacher in jail for naming a stuffed bear Mohammad.