Tuesday
Jan192010
Israel and Gaza: Tzipi Livni "For Israeli Soldiers, I Will Go to Europe"
Tuesday, January 19, 2010 at 10:48 
On Monday, the former Israeli Foreign Minister Tzipi Livni appeared on CNN's Amanpour guest. Livni defended the Gaza War Operation Cast Lead because it "regained deterrence" to Israel and stated that the blockade on Gaza will continue as long as there is no official representative of Palestinians in the Gaza Strip: "Gates are open to Gazans when it comes to humanitarian needs".Speaking about the arrest warrant issued for her by a British court because of Gaza, Livni said that she is willing to travel to any part of Europe as a "test case" for IDF soldiers to travel and see the free values of the free world.
AMANPOUR: Tonight, on the one-year anniversary of the end of the war in Gaza, we look at the troubled Middle East peace process, which President Obama has also made a center point of his foreign policy.
And from Jerusalem, we have an exclusive interview with Tzipi Livni, head of the Israeli opposition party Kadima. She had served as foreign minister during the previous Israeli administration throughout the Gaza war.
Ms. Livni, thank you for joining us from Jerusalem.
TZIPI LIVNI, FORMER FOREIGN MINISTER, ISRAEL: Thank you.
AMANPOUR: Let me ask you, it's a year since the Gaza war. There's still a huge amount of controversy over it. What about lifting the Israeli blockade on Gaza? How come that hasn't happened one year later?
LIVNI: The idea of the military operation was in order to stop terror. And there is no dispute today, especially not in Israel, that the operation in Gaza regained deterrence. And Israeli civilians that couldn't live in the places which are close to Gaza Strip can live and have peaceful life.
AMANPOUR: So does that mean that the blockade will stay on?
LIVNI: The blockade on Gaza -- yes. But it's important to say that, when it comes to humanitarian needs, the gates are open.
AMANPOUR: Obviously, there's some humanitarian aid getting in, but there's, for instance, construction materials, all sorts of things that it needs to stand on its feet are not getting in. But I want to ask you, should Israel now, a year later, negotiate a full cease-fire with Hamas in exchange for lifting the blockade?
LIVNI: No, I don't think so. Basically, Hamas doesn't represent the national aspiration of the Palestinians. I believe that Israel needs to re-launch negotiations with Fatah, with the legitimate Palestinian government, with those who represent the legitimate aspiration of the Palestinians for a state of their own.
Hamas represents extreme religious ideology. Religious conflicts are unsolvable. And in this region, when the division is between extremists and moderates, we need to act in a dual strategy, on one hand, to act against terror, not to give legitimacy directly or indirectly with Hamas, to Hamas, and to continue the dialogue with the moderates, with the pragmatic leadership of the Palestinians.
AMANPOUR: You know the Palestinians say that a complete halt to settlement activity is -- is vital. You know the president, Barack Obama, and this U.S. administration started by saying that a condition would be a complete halt to Israeli settlement activity. What do you make of the fact that the U.S. President Obama made that his initial condition? Now it's no longer a condition.
LIVNI: Listen, it's not for me -- you know, to make opinions on this. But just to give you an example about the situation that we had about a year ago, we had negotiations with the Palestinians. We built trust. They understood that the Israeli government -- anyway, the former Israeli government -- wanted to achieve peace, and we are willing to make the concessions which are needed in order to do so.
And we believed that this is -- this is the same -- or this is what the Palestinians are standing, also, in order to end the conflict.
AMANPOUR: Do you think it could be done in two years?
LIVNI: So talking about...
AMANPOUR: If it starts, do you think negotiations can end in two years?
LIVNI: Less than that. Oh, yes.
AMANPOUR: Like Mitchell said?
LIVNI: Oh, yes. I think that -- I don't want to -- to refer to timeline. I mean, I negotiated with the Palestinians for nine months. And we had some achievement in this negotiation.
[15:20:00]
So it's not a -- not a matter of time. It's a matter of an understanding of by both sides, by both leaders, that time works against those who believe in two states for two peoples, that we cannot afford a situation in which the conflict transfers from -- or being transferred from a national conflict to a religious one, that we cannot afford to give excuses for radical elements in the region to recruit or to have more support in different part of this -- of this region.
So I believe that this needs to be started now, and the question of timeline is less important, as long as the two leaders -- two leaderships understand that time is of the essence.
AMANPOUR: OK.
LIVNI: There is no need to -- you know, to waste more time or to have a dialogue for a dialogue. It's time for decisions.
AMANPOUR: Let's go back to the Gaza war a year ago and the fallout from that. You've said the blockade will continue. As you know, the Goldstone report has said that Israel used disproportionate force and has called for an inquiry and has called for Israel to -- to -- to sort of hold accountable those who were responsible. Why is it that Israel will not hold a public inquiry? And do you think that it should?
LIVNI: Basically, I cannot accept any comparison between Israeli soldiers and these terrorists. I mean, there is no -- and this is something that Goldstone made in his report.
During the operation in Gaza -- and, as you mentioned, I was a decision-maker there -- and we took all the necessary steps in order to avoid civilian casualties, even though it's not easy when this is highly populated place, when terrorists hiding among civilians.
AMANPOUR: Ms. Livni? Why is it that Israel has not held and has not made any move to hold a public inquiry, a public investigation into these allegations? Even your own ex-justice minister, Barak, is saying that there should be such a probe of some sort. Why not?
LIVNI: There are -- there are different views on this in Israel, and I think that there is now a process of decision-making in the current Israeli government whether to take this or not.
But since I was there during the operation and I know what was done and the -- well, it's the military, and it's not public inquiry, but they checked all the different cases that also Goldstone referred to. And it's important for me to say whether there's going to be or not going to be an inquiry. The morality of the Israeli soldiers, for me, it's not in question.
Since I'm not going to accept all these comparisons between Israeli soldiers and terror, I think that this is part of the answer that Israel needs to give publicly.
LIVNI: But as I said before, there is now the internal discussion on this, in Israel, and the only question for me is whether this kind of an inquiry can give the support and can defend Israeli soldiers when they leave the state of Israel and visiting other places.
AMANPOUR: Well, I was going to ask you -- let -- let -- let me ask you, because there was an arrest warrant potentially out for yourself. Israeli leaders, even Defense Minister Barak have been likened to war criminals. There's a controversy going on in Turkey right now. Are you worried that, if you leave Israel and come to London or other such places in Europe, that you could be arrested?
LIVNI: Well, yes, this -- it's not -- it's not my worry on a personal basis. In a way, I would like this to have, in a way, maybe even a test -- a test case, because I'm willing to speak up and to -- to speak about the military operation in Gaza Strip to explain that Israel left Gaza Strip, we dismantled all the settlements, we took our forces out, Israel was targeted, we showed restraint, and at the end of the day, we needed to act against terror, and are willing to say so, including any court in London or elsewhere. But...
(CROSSTALK)
AMANPOUR: So you're saying you're willing to be arrested as a test case?
LIVNI: For me, this is not a question. I mean, yes, the answer is yes. I am -- I know that the decisions that we made were crucial to give an answer to Israeli civilians that couldn't live in the south part of Israel and later or even also in different parts of Israel. It was part of my responsibility, and this was the right answer. And I'm willing to spend for (ph) these reasons and to explain this to -- to the world and to any court.
But part of our responsibility is also to give -- or to defend the Israeli soldiers and officials that worked according to our decisions in the government. And if an inquiry helps them, this is fine, so I can support an inquiry, as long as this helps them.
It's not about me.
[15:25:00]
It's about the Israeli soldiers, because I want them to leave Israel and to feel free to visit different parts of the world according, you know, to -- like any -- like any other citizen of the free world and any other soldier...
AMANPOUR: OK.
LIVNI: ... and fight for the values of the free world in different parts of the world.
AMANPOUR: On that note, Tzipi Livni, head of the Kadima Party in Israel, thank you so much for joining us.
LIVNI: Thank you. Thank you.
Reader Comments (10)
The hypocrisy of these Zionists is almost too much t bear. The government Livni was part of caused as much death, injuries and destruction in Gaza as might have been caused by an earthquake. They cut Gaza off from receiving the bulk of the humanitarian aid pledged by the rest of the world and leave the people to rot, but their rescue teams are amongst the first to arrive in Haiti and start pulling people out of the rubble and delivering humanitarian aid.
Catherine -
Key word from Amanpour was "SOME humanitarian aid is getting in". I was a bit ignorant to the details of the situation in Palestine until I read Jimmy Carter's book and I have to say I was shocked at the least. Israel's goverment acts in a grossly disproportionate manner, especially in terms of military action. not to say Israeli citizens should live in fear or at risk of death but the casualty numbers from the Israeli offense say enough.
Can we really be surprised at the hypocricy in their actions? While not to take away from good actions by Israeli citizens, is it unrealistic to think this is propoganda to show that the Israeli gov supports human life, just except next door? What do you expect from a people who are deprived of basic human needs, pride and a sense of community? Many want to point the finger at the Palestinians, but can we blame some of their actions?
The US government needs to climb out of the Israeli lobby pocket and start acting in ways that support its talk which has been nothing but rhetoric to date. The US MUST begin to apply pressure to the Israeli government..not should, but MUST and this is beyond more "harsh" diplomatic language that amounts to nothing after all the disclaimers have been inserted throughout the statement.
Where is the justice?
There is a BIG difference between the situation in Gaza - and that in Haiti.
That difference is that the Haitians have not been raining rockets down on Israel.
Barry
Not to speak for Catherine but I think you are missing the analogy Barry (no offense as you seem to be a keen oberserver of news given my reads of your past comments). There are people next door that are suffering (yes not as much as Haitians are currently but lets not kid ourselves that the Palenstians, espeically Gazan's live in desolate conditions) and the hypocrisy is at the fact that Israeli government policy and action continue to degrade the quality of life (or lack thereof) in Gaza especially.
Bijan
"Israeli government policy and action continue to degrade the quality of life (or lack thereof) in Gaza"
What you say is true. BUT - this situation has not come about in isolation from other things. There is a preceding history that has led to the current situation. And if we are looking to apportion blame to anybody, it cannot all be directed solely towards the Israelis.
I don't know what the solution to all this will ultimately be - but I am sure that the Israelis will not be going back to a time before the 1947 UN resolution creating their State. Hence we have two peoples both claiming the right to a piece of land. The Israelis have been attacked ever since 1948, and self preservation is the highest thing on their priority list - some Arabs countries/peoples have made their peace with Israel, while others have not.
I do notice in this Forum a tendency to criticize Israel - so be it, but a balance of the complete situation is needed.
Barry
Barry -
Thank you for your comments. I agree. It is not one sided and my argument appears to have presented as such. However, while both are at fault, I continue to bring myself back to the concept of disproportionate action on the part of the Israeli government (for what it is worth I am trying to be sure to state government versus broad comments about Israeli citizens).
I think the overriding point to all of this is, as you point out, there is a very long history to this struggle and emotions involved that no one outside of the conflict can completely grasp. Moving past just the political, economic components of the discussions lets also remember there are very strong religious components to this as well than can very easily put other considerations to the bottom of the list.
I appreciate the comments to add balance and I agree that it is needed.
Best,
"However, while both are at fault, I continue to bring myself back to the concept of disproportionate action on the part of the Israeli government (for what it is worth I am trying to be sure to state government versus broad comments about Israeli citizens). "
*****
Any and all IDF self defence measures are "disproportionate." That's what those on the left side of the political spectrum have always told us. Nothing new here.
Other small countries like Liechtenstein and Switzerland are able to exercise a great deal of discretion in all areas of foreign affairs - political, economic,.....and military. Unfortunately, Israel is not able to exercise such a high degree of discretion. Neither is North Korea, the DRCongo or Eritrea. Overall state foreign policy and behavior is dictated by mere geographic position.
Egypt also has a wall, but nobody ever speaks of that one.
@ Bijan
I totally agree with the point you made at the end of your post 2, and thanks for pointing out that I was not comparing the situation in Gaza with that in Haiti.
We're all in different time zones so it's good when someone who understands what a post is about explains it to others on the sleeping author's behalf :-).
@ Dave
I do not consider myself anywhere near the left and I have felt that way for some time. You make good points about the region and yes Israel has many tougher challenges than other countries..I will not disagree with that point.
The article was about Livini..not an Egyptian political figure, thus no comments in regard to that. Fair point though and good you mentioned.
@Catherine
As I said I did not want to speak on your behalf but believed I understood the point you made..just glad you agreed!
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