The Latest from Iran (24 June): Persistence

2015 GMT: International Front. By the narrow margin of 99-0, the US Senate has approved a bill with sweeping sanctions --- far wider than the UN resolution that passed earlier this month --- on Iran's banking and energy sectors.

1545 GMT: Parliament v. President. Video has been posted of Speaker of Parliament Ali Larijani's speech in the aftermath of the Basij/student demonstrations against the Majlis bill asserting control of Islamic Azad University.

NEW Iran Special: Mousavi, Karroubi, and the Strategy of “We Are Still Standing (for the Revolution)”
Iran Document: The Mousavi-Karroubi Meeting (23 June)
Iran Eyewitness: An “Army of Strollers” and Allah-o-Akbar on 12 June (Tehran Bureau)
The Latest from Iran (23 June): Baghi Freed

1510 GMT: Political Prisoner Watch. Student activist and Mousavi campaign worker Arash Sadeghi has been sentenced to six years in prison and 74 lashes.

Labour activist Mohammad Ashrafi has been arrested.

Student Sina Tahani, detained earlier this month for distributing Mousavi and Karroubi leaflets, has turned 18 in prison.

Photographs of filmmaker Mohammad Nourizad, released yesterday from detention, have been released.



1240 GMT: This Week's Political News --- Shutting Down the Reformists? An EA correspondent follows up the news, which we noted earlier this week, that Parliament has deferred the local elections for Tehran and other city councils until spring 2012.

The correspondent asserts, "Should the Guardian Council approve this, this would give time to the conservatives to rout the reformists, removing them completely from the political radar. I believe it to be an ominous sign regarding the attitude of the ruling clique towards the concept of electoral politics."

1230 GMT: Political Prisoner Watch. Fatemeh Shams, the wife of student activist Mohammad Reza Jalaeipour, has told Radio Farda, "In a short phone call [on 20 June, six days after his detention], he told his mother that he was being held in solitary [confinement], but when asked in which prison, he remained silent."

Shams added, "Two days before Mohammad Reza's arrest, I received threatening e-mails from a group called the Cyber Army of the Islamic Republic saying 'we'll arrest your husband.'" The same group sent her another threatening e-mail after her husband's arrest saying, "We'll make you return to Tehran."

Seyed Hossein Marashi, former member of Parliament, Vice President in the Khatami Administration, and brother–in-law of former President Hashemi Rafsanjani has given leave of absence from prison for a week. Marashi is serving one year in prison for propaganda  against the regime.

1225 GMT: Parliament v. President. Footage has emerged of the Basij/student demonstration in front of Parliament on Tuesday, protesting the Majlis bill maintaining control (and thus refusing to cede it to the President) over Islamic Azad University.

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=87ANAadXRwA&feature=youtu.be[/youtube]

0754 GMT: The Situation Abroad. Writing in Rooz, Kaveh Ghoreishi highlights, "Iranian Refugees In Iraq Face Uncertain Fate".

0750 GMT: Political Prisoner Watch. RAHANA reports that 325 people were arrested during the month of Khordaad (May/June).

0730 GMT: We begin this morning with an analysis, "We Are Still Standing (for the Revolution) of Wednesday's statement by Mir Hossein Mousavi and Mehdi Karroubi.

Meanwhile....

Academic Corner

The International Campaign for Human Rights in Iran, with an interview with a student activist, highlights, "Summonses, Notices, and Dismissals at Qazvin International University".
Political Prisoner Watch

Fars News reports that the trial in Tehran Revolutionary Court of blogger Hossein Derakhshan has finally begun.

Derakhshan was arrested 19 months ago. He is accused of “cooperation with enemy states, propaganda against the Islamic regime, promoting anti-Revolutionary groups, insulting sanctities, launching and managing vulgar and obscene sites”.

Derakhshan was one of the first Iranian bloggers when he created “Editor: Myself.” He had settled in Canada but was detained when he returned to Iran in November 2008.

Where's Mahmoud?

For President Ahmadinejad, it is still eyes front-and-centre on the international front. He told an audience Wednesday, "The recent [United Nations sanctions] resolution against the Iranian nation was in fact a loud announcement of the fall of liberalism and humanism. Those who ratified the resolution are perfectly aware that it will have no impact."

Comments

[Kurt]

Oh my goodness, I just got wind of the latest Tzvi Ben Gedalyahu....

http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/138231" rel="nofollow">http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.asp...

As if I never learned the lesson of the boy who cried wolf.

[Ange-Paris]

Bozorg
I beg your pardon, but my comment is not at all hysterical; you say :
"The opposition can remain unified and focused while discussing their different visions of Iran, a nice exercise in democracy for a democracy-seeking opposition";
I am so disappointed because THEY ARE NOT UNIFIED; the story cited above with the flags is a true story ; it was during the last demonstration in Paris, 12 of june, when a group of "old" iranians, dressed up suit and tie were with their flag ( with lion and sun in the middle) among the others, they had even the pin's of iran on their coats; suddenly ,( and fortunately in the end of the ceremony),one of the organisers of the Movement , got the flag off him shouting :" I am a thug, if you continue, I will give you a slap !!" I was so ashamed; in our culture, iranian culture it's forbiden to treat old people like this and jostling them ; after shouting his kind words, one of his fellows, a girl, take the flag and run putting it in the garbage can; all of the people were very shocked and the organisers were criticized; I said "we have witnessing this kind of scene inside the country, we are fithing for democracy, and the outcome is this ?? from now on, we, meaning, I, my family and my friends won't participate in your demonstrations"; frankly shame on us that even this kind of detail, we are not able to handle !
I am not at all a fan of Kadivar and so far I didn't know him but his statement on VOA was credible; he said there is no black and white colours, but also different colours of grey ; Montazeri or Borougerdi were and have been ill treated in their life by the regime, they are religious with their turban on the head but they have had democratic thoughts, and admired by our youth inside the country; yes , I confirm that "ISLAM" and "DEMOCRACY" are not contradictory at all; eventually, it's people of Iran who will choose what kind of regime they desire, people living inside; for us living outside, what is very important is their happiness !
But togheter, hand in hand and unified, the thruth one(not the meaning that you have in your head Bozorg ), we will be stronger to topple the pillars of this merciless regime !

[Arshama]

Bahman,

First of all: I was provocative on purpose -- just to start the necessary debate.

@ 1. This was the provocation, which worked out ;-)
But seriously, Kadivar presented himself in the VoA interview as above all discussions, e.g. ignoring Ganji's criticism. Of course this was the fault of Ms Derakhshesh too, who missed the opportunity to pose critical questions.

@ 2. Kadivar was clearly defending the constitution, although the original one. Tactics is excellent, but deceiving. We have been deceived 31 years ago, that's enough.

@ 3. Your argumentation is very typical for the IR, i.e. everyone who dares to criticise Iran, our society or religion is automatically a monarchist, MKO supporter, "foreign spy" and the like. I grew up in Iran, I love my country, and I hate to see it in this state of total decline.
As an Iranian citizen I have the full right to demand democracy for my country -- it's not up to you to decide for me!

@ 4. I suggest you to listen to the VoA discussion carefully a second time.

@ 5. If Mr Kadivar really believes in what he says, he should go back and try to realise his plans. You cannot change the conditions in Iran from outside.

@ 6. As Mr Kadivar defends his beloved IR constitution, he should answer the question, why nearly every single article of it has been violated during these past 31 years? Women are clearly accepted to serve society as mothers, not as autonomous human beings. Mr Kadivar has to answer why his beloved constitution allows stoning, cutting off limbs and flogging as "acceptable" forms of punishment? Mr Kadivar has to answer why peaceful demonstrators get killed, without any punishment for their murderers, why all oppositional media are banned and its journalists imprisoned, why human rights acitivists are imprisoned just for defending them, why prisoners get raped and tortured to death etc. All these violations of human rights started right after the IR took over control. Have you forgotten Sadegh Khalkhali?
Mr Kadivar must explain, why this "Holy Republic" started its reign of terror with disowning its opponents and continues to do so? As you know a prayer on "ghasbi" property is invalid.
And here I return to # 3. Why must the rural population live in poverty, while the mullahs, IRGC and their supporters own nearly 60 % of all companies in Iran? Is this your concept of "Islamic justice"?

Arshama

[Ange-Paris]

Arsha
Kadivar himself was in prison because he was criticizing the regime; in his statement on VOA he was against the behavor of Khomeyni saying he had made a lot of mistakes; it's better if he stays outside because if he goes back, he will be imprisonned or killed, he's more useful outside of country as was Khomeyni; during his debate with Derakhshesh, he was praising Montazeri who was a democratic and open-minded man; he's against "veleyete faghih" which has caused all the problem in Iran; I don't think so that the first constitution written after the revolution was undemocratic; it's only after adding this "velayate faghih" that it has become unfair, because only one man can decide how the country has to be ruled, one man who has the right of veto on everything !

[wdavit]

And Ahmandinejad is spouting off about the fall of liberalism and humanism in reaction to new sanctions. Well we all know how liberal the regime--after all they have to ban nail polish, bright colors, toned hair, and short jackets!! One wonders if they are now going to ban all women from even existing? What a joke this regime is!

[wdavit]

Ange,

In reply to your statement "Islam and democracy are not contractory." There is some truth to this but it is true only if it is an Islamic democracy. In the sense of a true Western liberal democracy Islam does in fact contradict it. A true democracy entails freedom, liberty, and equality of all regardless of faith. These universal rights regardless of faith are only possible in a secular deomocracy that seperates religion from the state. Islam on the other hand marrys the state with religion and in fact positions the edicts of its scripture as a complete guide to a persons life governing the personal, religious, societal, economic, educational, and political. Islam also does not recognize equality of all regardless of faith and categorically rejects freedom of religions(read the Cario Decleration of Human rights and note how it does not even mentione freedom of religions.) I have also read the Quran, several Hadith sources, the Sira, and about 30 other works and it is my humble opinion that Islam does contradict what most call a true democracy. It rejects it simply because it does not recognize the validity of any other religion or man made laws especially so when they contradict Sharia.

Now having said all that I don't want to discourage you from believing it is possible. I just have a hard time seeing democracy taking root when Islamic scripture clearly states Allah's law(Sharia) will always hold precedance over man made law(democracy.)

Thx
Bill

[Catherine]

Hi Bill,
RE "These universal rights regardless of faith are only possible in a secular deomocracy that seperates religion from the state."

Maybe that's exactly what Ange had in mind when she said Islam and democracy are not contradictory? I think all religions actually benefit from separation of "church" and state - just look at the US.

[Arshama]

Bahman, did Kadivar say that he personally rejects flogging?

[Bahman]

Arshama,

Apparently you blame Kadivar, a leading opposition member with years of suffering from regime arrests and repressions, for every ill that has afflicted Iran for the past 31 years.

You didn't answer any of my points and I don't see the point of repeating them again.

It's unfortunate that your words, I'm sure unintentionally, are helping the regime by deepening division among Iranians outside (the ones inside don't care about any of this) thru attacking the opposition leaders.

I try to start my words by first asking myself: will those sacrificing their lives in regime prisons find my words helpful to their cause or not?

Good luck.

[Arshama]

Merci, Bill, well said!
Unlike Christianity, Islam never experienced a Reformation, or, to be truthful, all reformatory attempts have been oppressed during these 1400 past years.
"Our" problem (I'm a Muslim, but a secular) is, that Shariati and the like have forged a crude mixture of contradictory concepts, presenting it as an "Islamic democracy" to the Iranians, and unfortunately many still do believe in it.
In Persian we would call it "jam'e azdad" (a sum of contradictions), which is in my opinion very dangerous, because any attempt to continue this path is doomed to failure and reverts us to the same old logical trap.
I have no problems with people, who favourize an Islamic state, but I will continue to fight against all those, who declare it as "democratic" -- for all those reasons that you already mentioned.

Regards
Arshama

[Ange-Paris]

Bahman
Are you Kadivar himself ?? when you speak I can see him ( despite " I am not muslim !" :-) ; in any case you are very wise;
Arshama, sorry, I love you but in that point, I disagree with you.

[Bahman_Azad]

Ange, LOL!

Although I am an athiest, I'll take that as a huge compliment.

Despite my obvious fundamental ideological differences with Kadivar, I can only wish to be as articulate and charismatic as someone like him.

I don't know about the beard though...I've tried growing it a couple times but can't stand all the itching!!!

p.s., I broke down and signed up for discus, that's why I had to change my name for a unique user ID.

[Arshama]

Bahman,

Apparently Kadivar has learnt nothing from his arrests, just insisting on the same old wrong ways, which have lead to this mess!
Mr Kadivar is free to demand an Islamic Republic, but he is fooling everyone by declaring it as "democratic".
The problem is not "deepening divisions among Iranians outside", the problem is leaving hold of a cherished ideology. No one will blame you, if you don't decide to think by yourself...

Arshama

[Bozorg]

I really don't think you're having a conversation with me, or what I've written.

[Bozorg]

This sort of emoting, where you don't even address what I've said, doesn't augur well for Iranian democracy.

[Bahman_Azad]

Arshama,

You said "Mr Kadivar is free to demand an Islamic Republic"...for the 3rd time now, can you please show me where he has indicated that that is his "demand"?

We can't just take a person's position and spin it into a misleading statement to support our own pre-determined argument.

Again, there is a big difference between "demanding" something and having a pragmatic plan.

Using civil disobedience and working thru an existing constitution (with all its flaws) is not a demand, it is a pragmatic plan, a plan that the vast majority of Iranian protesters apparently support.

Greens have been clear that "people's vote" must determine the future of Iran. So question is: do we want another chaotic revolution as our path to determining what people want or do we want a gradual, deliberate path?

We tried the former in 1979 and saw how that turned out. Let's try something different this time.

[Bijan77]

Bill -

Well said but may I add that even Christianity, at one point in time, also ruled over the laws of man and had significant influence on all aspects of daily life (one may argue this has not disapeered but rather is less prevelant). Islam, specifically through the sources other than the Quaran, has an added element Chrisitianity does not have which that has a larger influence over daily activities. However it is still a choice that an individual or larger group can make, e.g. post islamist thought, that will allow Islam and democractic thought to co-exist...as you point out. Further while yes there is an inequality, which religion does not have this to some extent? Christians would argue, the vast majority, their faith is correct and only through the beliefs that Christians hold, one may go to Heaven. I am not aware where Christian followers would say that if you are a Muslim, that is ok too. Therefore may it be fair to say that the inequality leads in some cases to exclusion and unfortunate oppression, thus leads to the undemocratic nature? Also, and you seem to be well educated in Islam so please correct me if necessary, Islam acknowledges prior judeo based faiths and I can say with certainty that growing up in christian churches, all I knew of Islam was it was wrong!

I apologize for the tangent as I do agree it can cause complications for creating a democratic envioronment but may I say I do not see this as limited to Islam. To Arshama's point below Islam, not to my knowledge, has not had a transformation and remains a decentralized model. This reasons, amoung several, may be the reason why there is a wider gap between Islam and democracy. Again, as you seem knowledgable I am interested to your additional thoughts.

Regards,

[wdavit]

Catherine,

" I think all religions actually benefit from separation of "church" and state - just look at the US. " But that is precisely the problem with Islam. Islam quite clearly says Sharia is the only law all Muslims must follow. Because Sharia is sourced from scripture this means Islam clearly rejects a seperation of state and church. Frankly its why democracy and secularism have had such a hard time even existing in the Islamic world. Where it does nominally exist it is always under pressure by theological forces. Its why you always have these Sharia advocates spanning the globe agitating for Islamic law--they do so because its what their religion demands of them. A case in point in the West is Muslims continually asking for Sharia courts and sometimes getting them. They ask because again God's Law, Sharia, always holds primacy over man made laws in Islam.

Thx
Bill

[wdavit]

Ange,

I suspected that is what you meant. I have actually come across many clerics in Iran that do advocate more democracy and religious freedom. However as I noted Islam itself does not believe in a true secular democracy. Its why I believe, as you do, it must be an Islamic one. As much as it is a paradox I believe it can work for Muslims. The problem is for non Muslims who do not believe in the primacy of Islamic law. Frankly it is why non Muslim minorities across much of the Islamic world have been in a demographic free fall for the past few decades. You only have to read up on the Copts in Egypt, Christians in Lebanon, or Christians/Hindus/Sihks in Pakistan for a feel on this. Or read up on any number of human and religious rights reports published annually and note it is always Islamic states that occupy close to 70% of the top 20 spots on the world's worst human and religious rights abusers list.

On Karroubi I do agree with you but I would be interested what he would have to say about the Bahais. He might open up things for them but I wonder if even the Green Movement will return all the rights taken away from the Bahais. Only time will tell and I think Karroubi would be a great start.

Thx
Bill

[wdavit]

Arshama,

A reformation is a paradox to Islam. How do you reform the word of God which is beyond critique, prescribed for you to follow, and a message good for all time? You can't and I think you understand that well. It is why being a secular Muslim is a contradiction as well. That my friend is the crux of the problem and sadly many people seem to miss this important point. However I do think Ange gets it(as you obviously do as well.) Her second post clarified her point.

This has been an issue I have struggled with for years. How in the world can Islam coexist in the modern world if it rejects secularism and democracy? How can Islam coexist when its golden rule is not "live and let live" but that "all must submit to Allah?" The actions of ordinary Muslims hold promise but the sticking point always comes back to the inviolate nauture of Islamic scripture that says it cannot. Sadly it would seem Islam would have to "lose its Islam" in order to truly coexist in a secular democractic world. That will never happen and thus will be chasing our tails endlessly trying to fit a square peg into a round hole. The blessing Christianity had was Jesus's statment "leave unto Cesar's what is Cesar's" leaving open the gate for man made law(i.e. democracy and secularism) while nothing of the sort can be found in the message of Islam.

Thx
Bill

[Arshama]

Bahman,

As Mr Kadivar advocated the first draft of the Islamic Republic's Constitution, there is no other possible conclusion than he is demanding it. You accepted and refuted it in the same sentence.

You also mix up practical strategies and the discussion about Iran's future. I cannot decide about the former, because I'm not in Iran, but surely can make statements on the latter.

Thirdly, you try to ascribe the issue of a violent revolution to me, which is false as well.

As to democracy, I only repeat my favourite sentence: you cannot be a little bit pregnant...

[Bahman_Azad]

Bill,

Shia Islam for centuries had stayed away from any active role in the governing of a society, believing that that must be deferred until the Hidden Imam and Christ return and Christ becomes the king of the world. In fact even today several top level clerics (Marjas) still direct their followers to stay away from politics and power.

I'm not sure how the same notion is treated by Sunni Islam but I would guess that there exists a range of views and some also require staying away from power.

Don't you think that that notion allows for committed Muslims to, if not actively support, at least live with secular governments?

[Bahman_Azad]

Arshama,

You can of course make statements about whatever you want. I repeat my point that the question is: Do those in IRI's prisons welcome such statements as helpful to their cause or not.

Using that criterion, IMO your attacks on Kadivar would not be welcome by those fighting the regime inside Iran.

As far as democracy, of course you can have different shades of democracy. Was the US a democracy when women could not vote? How about when it was shooting university students at Kent State? How about when it created a whole prison system to avoid its own laws? How about right now when gays do not have the same right as straight people?

Like most other things in life, democracy is a process. Different countries start at different points and move at different paces, sometimes even regressing.

So let's not get black & white about this (didn't Kadivar say that???). If we do, we start to sound too much like Mesbah Yazdi....yuk!

[Arshama]

Bahman,

You are completely right! Amen.

Arshama

[Ange-Paris]

Arshama
As Bahman has said, democracy is a process; little by little we can reach the true one and it lasts very long; so please " koutah bia " and accept the first step of this democracy because even this one, we are not sure to have it as soon as toppling this merciless regime; yours, it will last many years to be reached and suddenly and immediately it's not possible; imagine a world where we will overthrow the notion of velayate faghih by a referendum, and year after year , changing some parts of our constitution; our society will become secular automatically with time ; already it would be a huge step if felate faghih, hijab, acceptance of ethnical and religious differences and censors didn't exist; so smile and think about this world ! :-) ; there is ups and downs in our fight, but we have to regain our self control being hopeful !