The Latest from Iran (7 September): Countdown to 18 September Begins

NEW Iran Urgent: Mousavi HQ Raided by Security Forces
Iran: Green Wave Resurgent?
Iran’s Victims: The 72 People Killed in Post-Election Conflict
Iran: Resistance and Music – New Shajarian Song “Language of Fire”
The Latest from Iran (6 September): The Reformists Speak

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2030 GMT: No Criticism Here. Press TV's website writes out the admonition of the Supreme Leader to President Ahmadinejad and the Cabinet to take heed of "benevolent criticism" (see 1830 GMT). Instead the report emphasizes Ayatollah Khamenei's declaration about the legitimacy established by the election, “The nation and the Islamic Revolution have proven their republican nature. If officials, elites and political experts understand this fact, many of the country's problems will be resolved."

1930 GMT: Is the Regime Targeting Leaders' Children? That's the question asked by one of our readers, who noticed the arrest of Atefeh Emam, the 18-year old daughter of Mir Hossein Mousavi's Chief of Staff, Javad Emam, who is still detained himself. She was reportedly released earlier today, after 24 hours of continuous interrogation, near a Tehran cemetery.

Earlier in the crisis, the regime arrested several members of the family of former President Hashemi Rafsanjani, and pressure has been placed this week on the son of Mehdi Karroubi.

1830 GMT: Khamenei Manoeuvres. In a line which is not that far from the "conservative" Society of Militant Clergy criticism of the President, the Supreme Leader has advised Ahmadinejad and his Cabinet: "There is internal criticism backed by foreign media with the aim of sabotage but there is also benevolent criticism which may not come from supporters of the government but they contain good comments."

1710 GMT: Clerics Warn Ahmadinejad. The reformist Association of Teachers and Researchers of Qom have issued a statement warning that the regime cannot be maintained with military force, arrests, and brutality.

More intriguing, however, may be a finger-wagging at the President from the "conservative" Society of Militant Clergy, their first intervention in the post-election crisis:

We ask the president and the government to seriously try to solve people’s problems and the country’s economic and social issues, and avoid talking about unnecessary and provocative issues. The comments made and the disrespect committed in the debates, speeches and rallies before and after the election caused divergence.

The Society criticised the opposition for pursuing demands "outside law", but it also called for "consoling" those harmed in the unrest.

Possibly Relevant Fact: One of the members of the Society is former President Hashemi Rafsanjani.

1645 GMT: A Norooz News article, featured on Mir Hossein Mousavi's Facebook page, says that:

"Security Forces attacked the Staff office of Mir Hossein Mousavi which was resposible for following the issues of the detainees, without any legal premisson. All documentations were confiscated and taken out to... an unknown destination. As Staff members asked for receipt, security forces answered that no documents will be given back, thus there will be no receipt !!"

(Thanks to Mike Dunn for covering, as I was stuck in traffic when this came through. We have posted as a separate entry, cleaning up some of the text and adding a brief analysis.)

1430 GMT: We've been watching since reports came in yesterday of a meeting in Qom between Grand Ayatollahs Golpaygani and Makarem-Shirazi. Now the website of the Green movement, Mowj-e-Sabz, is reporting that there were several Grand Ayatollahs and senior clerics, including Bayat-Zanjani, Montazeri, and Mousavi-Ardebili, in the discussion of "practical steps against the coup government", after receving letters from political and social activists.

1340 GMT: Fars News reports that Press TV will soon air a "roundtable" of detainees Saeed Hajjarian, Mohammad Atrianfar, and Saeed Shariati on the causes of their "change of attitude and intellectual development".

1130 GMT: We're here but it is a very slow day, with little breaking on the political front.

There is one story that catches the eye. According to Tehran Bureau, via a source, the revelations of the abuses of detainees in Kahrizak Prison cames from a photographer for the Supreme Leader.

The well-known documentary maker and photojournalist, who recorded the eight-year Iraq-Iran war and became a ‘Sacred Defense’ photographer, was arrested during the post-election unrest and taken to Kahrizak where he was abused and tortured. After his release, he informed Ayatollah Khamenei about jail rapes and prisoner abuse. When the Supreme Leader expressed disbelief, the man revealed that he was one of the victims: "What they did was inhumane and in violation of all human rights… When they did those things to me, in my eyes it was you who was doing them."

Soon after this, Khamenei ordered the closure of the notorious detention center.

(The photojournalist was one of the cameramen who made Mir Hossein Mousavi’s campaign films, although it is unclear if they played any part in his arrest. He has also worked on a documentary about Mahmoud Ahmadinejad.)

0850 GMT: If the BBC was paying attention, rather than trotting along with the notion of Iran's Nuclear Programme Above All Else (see 0820 GMT), it might have noticed these comments from President Ahmadinejad in his press conference, directed at the opposition movement:

The election and post-election events was victory of Iranian nation's morality against immoralities. The other victory of Iranian nation was success in removing contamination from Revolution.

0840 GMT: Rafsanjani Speaks. A small amendment to the end of today's analysis, "The large presence of Hashemi Rafsanjani has disappeared." The former President said, at a ceremony to commemorate Ayatollah Ali Qoddousi, Iran's prosecutor general who was killed by Mujahedin-e-Khalq Organization (MKO) in 1981:

It is a vital need of the Islamic Republic and establishment to find a way to strengthen national unity and establish peace in the country. In the recent events, the sides should act in a way which will guarantee national unity.

Small amendment, indeed, as the statement just repeats Rafsanjani's cautious, hold-the-line comments that we evaluated in mid-August.

0820 GMT: MediaWatch. The New York Times does another good job this morning, picking up on the Khatami statement and Mousavi letter (though missing Karroubi's moves) that we've highlighted all weekend and in today's analysis. The Washington Post also mention Khatami and Mousavi but hide the impact by tucking them away under a headline on an older story, "Iran Canceling Major Ramadan Events in Wake of Election Protests".

CNN are nowhere to be found, preferring to go with "Chavez Pledges Closer Ties with Iran". Al Jazeera also gets distracted by the Venezuela dimension. Even worse at the BBC, which falls for the Iranian President's "Look Over There!" trick, "Tehran 'ready for global talks'".

0800 GMT: We heard about this story all day yesterday and are keeping a close eye on it (any information would be welcomed):

A group of Revolutionary Guards have resigned from the force according to Hosein Hashemian, an Iranian lawmaker. Mr. Hashemian told Parleman News Website that the unacceptable interference of the Revolutionary Guards in political matters has caused a rift in the force.

The story of resignations, including those of unit commanders, has been about since the start of the crisis, and more than 30 Islamic Revolution Guard Corps members have been arrested.

However, at this point without further confirmation, I am treating this as a bit of "psychological warfare" from the opposition to unsettle the Government. In particular, it is part of the fightback against the recent statements of the Revolutionary Guard's chief commander, General Mohammad Ali Jafari (see our separate analysis today): Hashemian called for Jafari to be detained for his claim that former President Khatami and other reformists were trying to "unseat" the regime.

0655 GMT: We've spent the morning on two special pieces. First and foremost, Josh Shahryar of Anonymous Iran's "The Green Brief" has spent hours translating into English, from the list provided by the Iranian website Norooz,  the names and descriptions of 72 people killed in post-election violence. Given that regime figures like high-ranking member of Parliament Alaeddin Boroujerdi have been trying to deny there is any evidence for the deaths, we think this is a vital document of record.

The second piece is an analysis, after a weekend of opposition statements, of the current political situation and the question of whether the Green Wave is moving towards a high-profile display of resistance on Qods Day, 18 September.

Comments

[Tweets that mention The Latest]

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[Samuel]

Next rumor by the reformists: The S.L. has finally and completely abandoned the teachings of Imam Khomeini and has converted to Hinduism. Now that he is a polytheist surely the people will abandon him. And of course a new scathing attack on the conversion has been released by Grand Ayatollah Montazeri.

Green wave resurgent? Not even close.

What is happening is that the the Reformist Bloc has really refined the art of whining to a new level. Every day now we hear the same tired refrain “but…but… the military cannot be involved in politics”, the Ayatollah Khomeini said so. Of course this ignores the barely hidden glee expressed by the Reformists during the post election disturbances whenever a silly new rumor arose about military officers (including Pasdaran officers) about to join the protesters. I guess the Reformers weren’t opposed to THAT KIND of military involvement in political matters. (Hypocrisy anyone?)

The real problem for Karroubi and company is that they’ve met their match in Mohammad Ali Jafari whose farsighted vision reoriented Pasdaran strategy internally more than 2 years ago.

“On October 20, 2007, in his first official speech as the IRGC commander-in-chief, Jafari talked about the new strategy and stated, “Based on the guidelines issued by the Leader of the Islamic Republic, the strategy of the IRGC has been modified. Its main task now is to confront internal threats.” http://ncr-iran.org/content/view/5483/153/

As the head of the Pasdaran Strategic Research Center Jafari was responsible for developing the strategic and tactical responses which proved so effective after June 12. Perhaps his most brilliant move was reorganizing the Basij (at one point he took direct command and named the current head as his deputy); the amazing flexibility shown by the Basij in taking back the streets is testament to Jafari’s wisdom.

If the Reformists are really building towards a confrontation on the 18th they will run into a fresh, well rested Basij, the oil on their dual sport motorcycles having recently been changed, ready to defend the revolution and the S.L.

Ahmadinejad may be somewhat distracted by the duties of governing but not so for the more formidable Mr. Jafari. Forget the duplicitous Larijani brothers, the patriotic candidate for President in 2013 will/should be Mohammad Ali Jafari.

[hasnakevazir]

iran wanted to get rid of west,but they have fallen in love with russian and are married now in their honey moon being warm by N.E!.
this political love making will contiue for a while and then a jelous lover named israel comes to attack their nest.russians desire is to dig a watery way from caspian to the so called persian gulf now or with in 100 years.this means that the related territory will be in war situation in approx.100 commings years.
islam,khomeyni,khamenee and all others are only poor dolls in the hand of international capitalism and multinational weapon manufacturers who are the most powerful organisation all over the world.

[Amy]

Tehran Bureau has an article about upcoming holidays and prayer events, what they mean, how they are celebrated in Iran and what is happening this year. As a non-Muslim, I've been confused about the significance of some announced changes-- am bookmarking this one:
http://tehranbureau.com/coup-leaders-afraid-face-people/" rel="nofollow">Coup Leaders Afraid to Face the People

[Amy]

Hi Samuel,
The intonation of your voice doesn't come through here. I can't decide whether you are speaking in support of the Pasdaran or just trashing the Reformists, but I hope you never have to live under the regime you describe in the last paragraph.

[Samuel]

Hi Amy,

I do happen to oppose the so called Reformist movement and I consider myself a supporter of the Islamic Revolution and the current Government. Let me explain my reasons.

First of all I am offended by the excessive, hypocritical and simply false charges against the Iranian Government. Iran today is far more democratic than the overwhelming majority of other Middle Eastern countries. Let’s go through the list: Mubarak is for all intents and purposes president for life of Egypt and his son is waiting in the wings; Saudi Arabia? Enough said. Lybia, again no need for details; Jordan-a monarchy which favors its Bedouin minority and has crushed Palestinian uprisings in the past. (See for example “Black September”) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_September_in_Jordan
Israel? Well it’s a democracy for jews just like South Africa was a democracy for whites. It truly is an Apartheid country in the 21st century.
Iraq under Saddam? Saddam would match the 72 killed in the recent post election disturbances most mornings before lunch.

The point is that given its neighborhood the govt. of the S.L. and AN is pacifist by comparison, yet the international community seeks to portray Iran as the second coming of Hitler. Why isn’t anyone else outraged by such ridiculous comparisons? You don't like stolen elections? How about the Israelis overturning the landslide victory by Hamas in a free and fair election? Where is the outrage there? How about Karzai stealing the current election in Afghanistan under American sponsorship. How about Lebanon where the presidency is reserved for a Maronite Christian?

Iran is such a dictatorship that members of Parliament routinely denounce the President, mocking him relentlessly and the S.L. has to try to convince the Parliament to confirm a proposed cabinet. Somewhere in hell Saddam is laughing at the SL and AN and calling them effeminate wimps.

The above is simply one aspect of my outrage at the current attacks against Iran. I will elaborate my support for the current govt. later on. And by the way I have lived under Authoritarian governments.

[AZ]

May I inquire as to the reason you are not residing in Iran? Also, I'm having a hard time understanding your reasoning behind how one corrupt government justifies another?

[Amy]

Samuel,
A couple of questions:
You said that MP's can speak their opinions about SL & AN openly. They have the protection of being in the public eye. Why is it not acceptable for the average person on the street to make the same statements?

Why is it considered an internal threat for people to disagree politically? The last few months could have gone very differently if there had been some discussion of dissenting views and accommodation of differences. What is gained by cracking down on people who disagree with the government?

[kevina]

A "tweet" from Iran (several place):

"Azeri clerics & intellectuals 2 Mousavi: Recognize Montazeri as Supreme Leader & introduce cabinet: http://bit.ly/1LN5hH #IranElection"

Now, this is NOT reporting or factual. Just something to keep in the back of the mind.

[kevina]

One more:

"Big league & I mean BIG LEAGUE Ayatollahs meet with Hassan Khomeini, grandson of Ayt Khomeini #iranelection"
@persianbanoo

Again, mere rumor. Don't go crazy with this.

[Samuel]

The issue is not whether one corrupt or dictatorial government justifies another, the issue is that the criticism of the Iranian government is so disproportionate compared with its neighbors as to classify as delusional. The opposition is partly responsible for this. Karroubi and others have compared the current repression to the Israeli massacres of innocent Palestinians. ON WHAT PLANET IS HE LIVING? Reformists have compared the current trials to the trials of Stalin, the purges the resulted in the deaths of millions. The word delusion comes to mind.

Iran under the Supreme Leader and AN is NOT a democracy in western terms--No one who walks the earth with their eyes open claims that it is. It is an AUTHORITARIAN system with democratic and republican elements. That is the system imposed by the Revolution and it is the system that Imam Khomeini wanted. Velayat-e Faqih (Guardianship of the Jurist) is not a doctrine invented by the current SL or AN, it is the legacy of the very leader which the dishonest and hypocritical opposition claims to follow! And the current SL was himself personally chosen by the same Imam Khomeini bypassing the unstable and irresponsible Ayatollah Montazeri.

You do not like the system? FINE, BUT DON’T LIE and claim that you are returning the Revolution to its original ideal.

For those of us who don’t make a fetish out of Western style democracy it is easy to recognize that Authoritarian govt. has virtues as well as faults. China and the Soviet Union were both at a crossroads in the 1980’s. Presidents Gorbachev and Yeltsin became devout democrats-AND NEARLY DESTROYED their country in the process. Under these two leaders democratic Russia followed a course which was rapidly turning the country into an international laughingstock and basket case.

China, ah that is another story altogether. Under the enlightened, progressive but HARD LINE leadership of Deng Xiaoping China went on to see 3 decades of progress, stability, peace and phenomenal prosperity. And yes when it came time to crush the western loving, democratic fetishists who threatened the nation’s stability at Tiananmen Square he did not hesitate to send in the tanks. (Notice that the SL and the Pasdaran did not send in the tanks on June 20th)

Is Iran under the SL and AN on the verge of a great leap forward like China in the 1980’s? No one really knows but what we do know is that Iran today is on the cusp of regional preeminence unknown since the days of the ancient Persian empire and the triumph is threatened by the opposition’s fanatical determination to destabilize the system. This is the reason why any Iranian patriot (or those sympathetic to Iran’s standing) should rally around the SL and AN.

Today the American Imperialists are finally on the verge of two colossal defeats in Iraq and in Afghanistan. As many wise observers have noted Iran will be the dominant power in Iraq despite billions of dollars spent and the efforts of thousands of Americans soldiers over 6 years. The Hezbollah is an equal partner in Lebanon and will soon be in control given the demographics of that country and its Shiite majority. In Israel/Palestine Hamas has become the dominant movement overtaking the PLO.

Outside the immediate area Iran is becoming a symbol of Anti-Imperialism; the only nation to stand up to America and expansionist Israel while most of the Arab nations bowed before Washington, London and Paris. Is it any accident that leaders like Hugo Chavez of Venezuela and other South American nations seek and alliance with the Govt. of the S.L. and AN.

Finally, the nation is on the verge of joining the Nuclear Club in the face of withering criticism form Western nations who wink at the hundreds of nuclear weapons in Israel’s Arsenal.

I do not deny that Mousavi and Khatami in their day contributed to the Revolution but today when Iran is approaching a regional revolution they and the other reformists have thrown in their lot with those who want to overturn the Revolution.

The Supreme Leader and AN (despite his obvious flaws) deserve all the credit for this moment of glory. It is not surprising that at this moment the Iranian nation is under the greatest threat from those parties attempting to containg the nation's influence. Israel threatens military action every other day, the west threatens crippling sanctions. AND IT IS UNPARDONABLE THAT THE REFORMISTS ARE TRYING TO BRING DOWN THE SYSTEM AT THIS POINT IN HISTORY.

[Amy]

Samuel,
Why is it considered an internal threat for people to disagree politically? The last few months could have gone very differently if there had been some discussion of dissenting views and accommodation of differences. What is gained by cracking down on people who disagree with the government?

[Greenmail]

How pleased Samuel is with Jafari’s IRGC and the Basij and the virtuous job they did “taking back the streets,” nothwithstanding the beating, torture, rape and murder of dozens of Iran’s best and brightest. You must be so proud. Barbarism is the new black, eh?

A true Iranian patriot would have honored those brave young Iranians, would have fostered their talents for the benefit of all, intead of extinguishing them. Any civilized country would be proud to call the martyrs its sons and daughters. But instead Samuel doesn’t even acknowledge them, the victims of is heroes, a he is blinded by his infatuation with Strongman military dictatorship, a tragicomic relic of the last century, at a time when the young world moves unstoppably towards democracy and international understanding.

China and Russia are your models, samuel? What, no mention of Mussolini and Hitler? Vlad the Impaler? BTW, just because the govts of CH and RU "support" the regime doesn't mean the people of CH and RU do.

If prosperity is your main criterion maybe U should enlarge your field of view to include countries like Canada, Norway, Australia etc., who have had decades of prosperity AND democracy at the same time without beating their own citizens to death. Aim higher!

Jafari is a coward among cowards. Only cowards are afraid of a free media, of free speech, free thought, and the free expression opf dissent. The regime are a bunch of whining cowards whose intellectul arguments are so weak they prefer to answer with batons and bullets. shame on you and all like you who are too weak to handle democracy. Your way of thinking is destined for the trash bin of history.

[Samuel]

I should add that Russia has improved considerably since the emergence of the Authoritarian (that word again) government of Vladimir Putin. Putin, Hugo Chavez and AN are very similar in many ways: Populist, Radical, anti-imperialist personalities leading resurgent nations.

We should note that the relationship with Chavez is having material benefits (today's announcement about Venezuela selling refined oil products to Iran) but also Religious benefits. It seems that Chavez has allowed Iranian missionaries into his country and they are having some success in converting indiginous tribes to Islam. http://www.cesnur.org/2007/mi_03_24_en.htm
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nc0eIp3aLMc

Finally Hezbollah in Lebanon openly and gratefully admit their gratitude to Supreme Leader Khamenei:

"Interview with Sheikh Naim Qassem, Hezbollah deputy secretary
general

On July 30 Sheikh Naim Qassem, Hezbollah deputy secretary
general, was interviewed by the Lebanese daily Nahar al-Shabab . He was asked about the relations between the Iranian leadership and Hezbollah, and answered that Hezbollah was a Shi'ite "political-religious party" which had to receive political and religious [Muslim] legitimacy from the [Iranian] leadership. He added that as a party, Hezbollah regarded the Imam Khomeini as a "guardian jurist" and a leader providing the organization with legitimacy. He added that after Khomeini, the Imam Khamenei , was the one who " decides general guidelines for us, which free us from blame and give
us legitimacy ."

Therefore, he said that Hezbollah would not
wage war on Israel without religious authorization from the "guardian jurist" of Iran, who was a clerical authority,2 but as a guardian jurist he was not supposed to enter into the details regarding how the decision was carried out (timing, necessary weapons, etc.), which was in the hands of Hezbollah."
http://www.imra.org.il/story.php3?id=45282

[Samuel]

"Why is it considered an internal threat for people to disagree politically? The last few months could have gone very differently if there had been some discussion of dissenting views and accommodation of differences. What is gained by cracking down on people who disagree with the government?"

Amy,
As outlined above this is very unique moment in Iranian history. Do not forget that during WWII American interned Japanese Americans and suspended many rights that they would not have done during peacetime.

There was discussion and debates and rallies and rallies where AN was freely attacked and no Basij appeared on a motorcycle. The violence started in earnest only when the S.L. told the Reformists to get off the streets and accept the results.

Let's get real. Iran is not a Democracy in western terms and every election since 1979 has been manipulated to some extent. That is what Authoritarian Governments do all over the world. At that point (June 19th) the oppossition could have backed off and there would have been peace. The SL has worked with liberals before, (Khatami for one, for eight years) but he did not want to work with Mousavi now (he has in the past 1980-1988) NOT AT THIS POINT IN HISTORY. I suspect it has to with the particular nature of the present opportunity/crisis AND IN THIS SYSTEM, DEVELOPED BY IMAM KHOMEINI, THE SL HAS THE LAST WORD.

You may not like it, I do not like an innocent person like Neda getting killed, but if you stay home on the 20th there is no violence or very little of it. But no, Mousavi and company have to call the people into the streets day after day. And once they are on the streets nonstop that is not dialogue, that is an attempt to overthrow the system.

Look at American troops when WWI veterans tried to camp out in Washington DC--the Govt of the US sent in troops and massacred them:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bonus_Army

"U.S. Army intervenes
On 28 July, 1932, Attorney General Mitchell ordered the police evacuation of the Bonus Army veterans, who resisted; the police shot at them, and killed two. When told of the killings, President Hoover ordered the U.S. Army to effect the evacuation of the Bonus Army from Washington, D.C.

At 4:45 p.m., commanded by Gen. Douglas MacArthur, the 12th Infantry Regiment, Fort Howard, Maryland, and the 3rd Cavalry Regiment, supported by six battle tanks commanded by Maj. George S. Patton, Fort Myer, Virginia, formed in Pennsylvania Avenue while thousands of Civil Service employees left work to line the street and watch the U.S. Army attack its own veterans. The Bonus Marchers, believing the display was in their honour, cheered the troops until Maj. Patton charged the cavalry against them — an action which prompted the Civil Service employee spectators to yell, "Shame! Shame!"

After the cavalry charge, infantry, with fixed bayonets and adamsite gas, entered the Bonus Army camps, evicting veterans, families, and camp followers. The veterans fled across the Anacostia River, to their largest camp; President Hoover ordered the Army assault stopped, however, Gen. MacArthur—feeling this free-speech exercise was a Communist attempt at overthrowing the U.S. Government—ignored the President and ordered a new attack. Hundreds of veterans were injured, several were killed — including William Hushka and Eric Carlson; a veteran's wife miscarried; and many other veterans were hurt."
________________________________________________

That, Amy, is what western style democratic Governments do to demonstrators who tried to camp out in Washington DC. And those folks were veterans! Why it makes the Basij sound tame by comparison.

[Samuel]

"Only cowards are afraid of a free media, of free speech, free thought, and the free expression opf dissent. The regime are a bunch of whining cowards whose intellectul arguments are so weak they prefer to answer with batons and bullets. shame on you and all like you who are too weak to handle democracy."
Silly rant but I take your point, you want a western style democracy in Iran. Fine, I WISH THE REFORMISTS HYPOCRITES WERE SO HONEST and openly advocated the overthrow of the theocracy. Instead they whine endlessly about how the current govt. has abandoned the true ideology of Iman Khomeini.

Let's get one thing right: the Ayatollah Khomeini did not believe in Democracy, Period. You want secular democracy? Wonderful, pick up an AK-47 and fight for it like Kurdish separatists have for decades. But if that is the Goal then admit that for your purposes a Montazeri Fatwa is as useless as a Khomeini or a Khamenei Fatwa. Honesty and Clarity are wonderful things.

[Greenmail]

Oh boy, a tiny handful of world leaders are not completely disgusted by AN and the "supreme leader." Hugo Chavez! That's a stunner. Do any leaders who aren't faux populist, demagogic neofacists truly support the regime? BTW, Putin, Chavez and AN have been blessed with high oil prices - that's why their countries appear resurgent. Most people in Venezuela, Russia and Iran are not doing so well though, as you well know. Despite having that tremendous oil wealth, AN pretty much put the economy in the dumper. And at what cost to Iran's people, culture, trade and reputation worldwide?

Few in this world see AN as the liberator standing up to America, not after the post-election crackdown. The Big Lie doesn't work against a million phone cams. AN and Khamenei and their thugs are no better than Israeli thugs bombing children or American thugs waterboarding detainees or Russian thugs assassinating journalists. You have more in common with your ostensble enemies like Israeli hardliners than you have with your own people. strip away the details and you are all just thugs.

Please clarify, samuel. Are you completely against democracy, or against it only for Iran?

It is tricky to compare stalin's russia and the current regime in Iran, because the former Ussr was many times larger and different culturally. Otherwise, the comparison holds.

[Greenmail]

I don't want a western-style democracy in Iran. I want the Iranian people to be able to decide in free, fair, transparent elections to choose their own government without fear of having their vote rigged, of having their heads broken, of being raped to death or hanged for having the temerity to express an opinion. Iran already has a pretty good foundation to build its own government -- fought for more than a hundred years ago. Democracy isn't a western construct alien to the rest of the world. Cyrus gave the world the seminal work on the rights of man after all. A proper and verifiable voting procedure + basic human rights i that so much to ask?

If hypocrisy was really what bothers you, I'd think you could find more than enough on the An and Khamenei side to keep you busy. I interpret the reformist call for a return to the original ideals of the Khomeini revolution as being the time before Khomenei actually took power. IIRC there was a lot of talk from the Imam then about justice equality freedom and fairness. Those are the ideal to which they refer IMO.

But I don't think your problem is the "hypocrisy" of the reformists because even using your interpretation of their words, their "hypocrisy" is so minor compared to the regime's crimes. On one hand we have the reformists making vague statements about the original ideals of 78-79, on the other we have a regime beating people to death, raping them to death, putting on tragicomic show trials etc. etc.

I think your job, samuel, is disinformation. Anyone here buying it?

[Samuel]

"Most people in Venezuela, Russia and Iran are not doing so well though, as you well know." Most people in the world are not doing so well, there is a global recession/depression going on. Check the papers.

"AN and Khamenei and their thugs are no better than Israeli thugs bombing children". Wrong and false. AN and SL have the bombs, the planes and the tanks. Instead they sent in the Basij with pipes, chains, clubs and Honda motorcycles (very few use of guns, Neda being the tragic exception). Level of escalation matters. It goes without saying that every death is tragic but 72 deaths during weeks of rioting is relatively small (how many of them were Basij dead?). The Calvin Klein wearing protesters also had clubs, rocks and it appears that they threw acid at the faces of the Basij. More innocent individuals get killed on weekends in American controlled Iraq and everyone talks about how peace and stability is breaking out all over in that country.

"Please clarify, samuel. Are you completely against democracy, or against it only for Iran?" Not against democracy at all unless it is being imposed by foreign troops carrying bayonets. Works very well in many places, Switzerland for example, and not so well in others at particular moments in their history (look up Karzai, Afghanistan in your spare time)

[Greenmail]

You're citing something from the Hoover administration 70+ years ago to justify the shooting of Neda and others? It was wrong then, it is wrong now.

All elections are rigged in authoritarian countries? that's an argument?

You admit the election was rigged.

You admit the regime has murdered innocent people.

Yet, you still support them. What's in it for you, samuel, that you can shrug off the regime's barbarity with such ease?

[Samuel]

"I interpret the reformist call for a return to the original ideals of the Khomeini revolution as being the time before Khomenei actually took power." That is about a nonsensical statement as I've ever read. In other words the Reformists value the harmless, idealistic statements of Khomeini before he gets to power but despise the system he actually he put into place???

The whole premise of Guardinship of the Islamic Jurist was set forth in a series of lectures that Imam Khomeini gave to his students in Najaf, Iraq in 1970. Those lectures were compiled into a book and published in numerous languages. Copies of this book were smuggled into Iran during the time of the Shah and the doctrine was never denied by Khomeini. All of his students were well aware of it. Your interpretation above is absolutely bizarre.

[Greenmail]

“Most people in Venezuela, Russia and Iran are not doing so well though, as you well know.” Most people in the world are not doing so well, there is a global recession/depression going on. Check the papers.

Yes, but most countries aren't sitting on a sea of oil during a time of high oil prices. Venezuela, Russia and Iran have been, yet most of their people aren't doing so well. IIRC the per capita income of Iran is around $5000 as opposed to $95,000 per capita in Norway, another oil rich country.

I know Afghanistan well, and it is a very different country from Iran, as you well know. Are you saying Iran's progress and development is comparable to Afghanistan's? Are you saying Iranians can't handle democracy?

All countries need to evolve politically at their own rate, but to evolve means to move forward, not backward.

[Greenmail]

Khomeini's statements were often contradictory.

And you failed to address my point Mr. samuel Disinformation - minor "hypocrisy" versus raping people to death for expressing an opinion. You're on the side of raping people to death for expressing an opinion, is that right? That's better than vague mumblings of admiration for a national hero that may or may not be insincere?

[Samuel]

"You admit the regime has murdered innocent people." Every regime murders innocent people. Nato troops just murdered 90 innocent individuals in Afghanistan in the last few days. Bush and Co. murdered hundreds of thousands when they invaded Iraq under false pretenses. They tortured people and authorized war crimes. Your venom towards Iran is so disproportionate that it is laughable. Yeah, I know, I know but AN is Hitler etc, etc.

"Yet, you still support them. What’s in it for you, samuel, that you can shrug off the regime’s barbarity with such ease?" I support the Govt. of Iran because it has become the Arsenal of resistance for many anti-imperialists movements and nations. To repeat myself, Hezbollah and Hamas would be NOTHING, if not for the support given to them by Iran. If Nasser were alive today and helping resistance movements I would support him as well. Are you a pacifist? Your questions are extremely naive.

[Samuel]

"You’re on the side of raping people to death for expressing an opinion, is that right?"
People were raped in prison. Thousands are raped in prison in the United States every year. Obama's fault? Were is the proof that they were raped as a matter of policy. It makes no sense. If the govt. really wanted to send a message they would have shot 10,000 protestors and be done with it. Yeah but they are Hitler and Stalin reborn. Keep repeating that to yourself.