Friday
Feb262010
Iran Document: Latest Karroubi Interview "The Shah Didn't Behave Like This"
Friday, February 26, 2010 at 18:54 
An interview in Italy's Corriere della Sera with Mehdi Karroubi,first published in Italian in 22 February:How is your son now?
Physically, my son Ali is feeling better. In the first days, his condition was terrible. Now we are worried about his mental state. The damage Ali suffered is a small example of all that is happening to the children of this nation. But the regime is already paying for this.
What happened on February 11?
The repression was violent, no doubt. There was an unprecedented conflict with the population. This time, the regime didn’t want to allow any gathering of protesters and it used all its strength; it gathered its forces from all the different governmental organs. They arrested our friends and family members, and they threatened the others. But their mobilization and organization didn’t stop us.
I knew how it would end, but I went to demonstrate anyway. I will go again if there will be other demonstrations, even if the outcome is worse than the last one. The newspapers wrote that the people prevented the conspirators (e.g., Karroubi and Mir Hossein Mousavi) from entering the square. I would like to ask those newspapers, which are controlled by the regime and the government: do you think that ordinary people use tear gas? Do you think ordinary people use metal bars and knives? The masters need to know that these days will pass but their sign will remain.
The events of these months have often been compared to the Revolution of 1979. You compared the violence of the repression to that of the Shah’s time, but you said that his army had shown more restraint. Do you see other similarities between our times and those?
The Shah’s regime was corrupt at its core, but he didn’t behave like this with the people. What do the armed forces have to do with the election’s results? Why did they treat the people like this on the 22nd of Bahman (11 February)? During the reign of the Shah there were rules; they did not take the people arrested to the mosque to beat them to death even before they appeared in front of the judiciary. These people make arrests without a warrant, beat them and keep them in detention. Not to mention the rest (such as the alleged rape of detainees).
Under what conditions would you be ready to find a compromise with Ahmadinejad and recognise him as the legitimate president of Iran? Do you consider yourself to be a leader of this Green Movement?
I don’t consider myself the leader of the popular Green Movement. I consider myself a member of this movement and of the reformist movement. My actions aim to a return to the will and the ideals of the people, that is to say to the people’s sovereignty. I don’t have a personal conflict, nor a reason to reach an agreement or make peace with Ahmadinejad. We consider Ahmadinejad’s government an established government that has to answer for its actions, but not a lawful or legitimate government. I am nobody: it’s not up to me to find an agreement or a compromise. It is the people who have to decide whether or not they want a compromise with the government. It is the people who are in conflict with the government, and who do not accept its management of the country. The people don’t agree with the strategy that puts us in conflict with the world taken on by Ahmadinejad, and we are a part of this same people.
You said that chanting slogans against the Supreme Leader and for a secular state is wrong. What slogans should people chant?
The things should be kept separate. We are not trying to make the regime fall. On the other hand, the Constitution is not a divine revelation and therefore is not unchangeable. But, at the moment, not even this Constitution is applied in this country.
Before the election could you imagine that the Iranian people would go so far in asking for their rights and that their anger would grow so much?
I did not imagine or foresee that the Iranian regime would go as far as rigging the popular vote as it did. On the other hand, the regime has adopted an obstinate and non conciliatory attitude with the people, which is the cause of the current problems. In the first days, the people said, “Where is my vote?” The people are still the same. So what happened that lead them to adopt the current slogans? The people want healthy elections and to see their votes counted.
As a student of Khomeini, I read that you were extraordinarily absorbed by him. Is he still a model for your actions?
I loved the Imam and I still love him. Yes, he is a model and an example for me. He was a devout cleric, he had insight and far-sightedness. My love for him increased after his death because of what happened. The Imam lead the country in its most difficult time: the first decade after the Islamic Revolution. The country was at war, prominent figures and other important politicians were killed in attacks and in the war. In that situation, perhaps some special and sometimes excessive measures were taken. I don’t say that he was a perfect model. But actions and decisions have to be evaluated taking the times into account.
What is the worst thing that has been done in the name of the revolution? What were the most joyful moments of the revolution? Why do you still believe in the Islamic Republic?
The Islamic Republic consists of two concepts: republicanism and Islam. The worst thing is the damage done to both those concepts and principles. I’m not saying that nothing is left anymore, but the damage done is very serious, both to Islam and to the concept of “republicanism” which means “the opinion and the vote of the people”.
The Imam said that the final decision is up to the people. He always considered the public opinion and never allowed, even under the worse conditions, ambiguity and lack of clarity during the elections. What was damaged were the promises that we made to the people. The issue is not to make the regime fall, but to reform it.
I still believe in the Islamic Republic, but not in this kind of Islamic Republic! The Islamic Republic that we promised the people had the support and the vote of 98% of the population: it was the Islamic Republic of free elections and not of rigged elections. I believe in modern Islam, an Islam full of kindness and affection, not a violent or fanatic Islam.
Italian Prime Minister Berlusconi pledged to reduce the business with Tehran and to support new international sanctions. Do you think these measures would help the opposition in any way? What effects do you think UN sanctions will have on the government and on the people?
When I was the speaker of the Iranian parliament, the relationship between our parliaments was excellent. My official visit to Italy at that time, and the visit of two presidents of the Italian House to Iran are a sign of the good political relationship between the two countries. Even the letter sent by the presidents of the Italian House and Senate to the chiefs of the Iranian regime regarding the consequences of my (possible) arrest is a demonstration of the good relationship we had at that time. For this, I am grateful to the presidents and to the members of the Italian parliament. But I am absolutely against sanctions; they increase the economic pressure that the people already suffer because of the wrong policies of the government.
Reader Comments (20)
Iranians should be awed by Karroubi. He might turn into a much better leader than Mousavi, who has been outside of the frontline fight for far too long. Somebody recently compared Mousavi with Nelson Mandela? Karroubi would be a better comparison.
But he's not there yet. It's fairly well known that the leaders of the Green Movement are the people away from the spotlight. As the Greens look to their next step in their plan to get their country back from Ahmadinejad, however, they would be wise to consider Karroubi over Mousavi as their best hope for leadership.
James the Hype
Thank you, I agree with you . He has always shared in the demonstrations suffering from all the misadventures, himself and his family; the wife of Moussavi is very brave as well .
Karroubi is definitely more daring than Mousavi but I don't know which one would be a better formal leader for the Greens since Mousavi is much more thoughtful and calculating.
The two of them do complement each other's weaknesses well.
We don't have to prefer one over the other - they complement each other perfectly.
Mousavi - playing a statesmanlike role of long term strategist - is like Mandela the brain of the people's resistance.
Karroubi - brave,noble,honest, and utterly decent - is our Archbishop Tutu - the heart and soul of the people's resistance.
Mousavi - the peoples choice in the 2009 election [see below] - must be accorded full executive power as President - in our future Iran democracy.
Karroubi - the moral compass of the nation - would be an ideal choice of Head of State - who unlike the current incumbent can be trusted by the people to protect rather than subvert their rights under the constitution.
And Head of the Judiciary - in our ideal future democracy - should at least be a former Noble Peace Prize winner - who can be trusted to uphold womens and minority rights with the same vigor as those of the majority.
See: http://www.facebook.com/mousavi?ref=ts
"In other news, Edris Arya Shokouh and Ziaoddin Sabouri, two senior officials in the Interior Ministry, have been arrested.
It is said that the two leaked the actual results of the presidential election indicating that Mousavi had received 20 million votes, Karroubi a little over 13 million, and Ahmadinejad about 10 million."
DarZan, very well put.
Darzan
"Mousavi – the peoples choice in the 2009 election ..."
People are our heros; their choice is our's ! VIVA
"What is the worst thing that has been done in the name of the revolution? What were the most joyful moments of the revolution? Why do you still believe in the Islamic Republic?
(...)
The Imam said that the final decision is up to the people. He always considered the public opinion and never allowed, even under the worse conditions, ambiguity and lack of clarity during the elections. What was damaged were the promises that we made to the people. The issue is not to make the regime fall, but to reform it."
Well, I could only sigh and shake my head when I read this. Some of you might know that Karroubi was among the people who scolded Ayatollah Montazeri when he spoke out against the mass executions of the 80s.
My (personal) problem with Karroubi and Moussawi is that both still don't seem able to distance themselves from the political heritage of Chomeini or, at least, the person of Chomeini. In this regard they seem to lack a kind of intellectual independence from Chomeini which other people like Khadivar or Soroush have, because of their different political and intellectual development.
Soroush has the vision of a "religious (say modestly Islamic instead of secular) democracy", Khadivar wants an Islamic Republic without velayat-e faqih, but still Islamic (maybe not even modestly). What about Karroubi? What about Mussawi? Where do they want to lead the people? Would they accept the fact that the will of the people may go beyond their Islamic vision of the future of Iran?
let Iran eat their own Pistachio nuts. they are both terrorists. they both support Hamas and Hezballah. they both want a nuke. let these people kill each other. opening trade with this present culture is suicide. Mahmoud A'jad did us a favour. he's a lot more honest then these Green Revolution guys. The worst thing for the west would be some guy who makes it seem like they are "Moderate". Of course Iran yearns to have a liar represent them again.
At first I was going to get upset and remind us all about who introduced terrorism to the middle east (Israeli founders)? Who started bombing innocent civilians(Israeli founders)? Who lined up farmer families from small children to 90+ year olds against walls and executed every one of them to frighten the poor farmers out of their lands (Israeli founders)? Which country has the only nuclear weapons there (Israel)? Which country relies on my US taxes to arm itself to the teeth to commit atrocities toward palestinians (Israel)? Which country uses ver different laws to rule its different citizens, definition of apartheid (Israel)?
But then I decided that you are just another uninformed right-winger wishing to distract Iranians from their peaceful quest for freedom, independence, and justice. Unlike your deep hatred and racism, we Iranians wish nothing but peace and justice for the rest of humanity.
We love our jewish citizens just like the christian ones just like the athiest ones.
Israel regime's atrocities toward palestinians have already joined them at the hip with the Nazis that they supposedly despise......history will judge the government of Israel very harshly and they can't use their formidable army to frighten history!
@Bahman
"We love our jewish citizens just like the christian ones just like the athiest ones."
-------just like the Bahai ones?????
Barry
My thoughts exactly Barry.
Bahai ones "as well" and all the people with their own religion and beliefs . I thing it's too stupid not to respect people for their thoughts which are represenrarives of the same "energy" called God; before religions exist , people worshiped "statues", it was the same life, the same problems, the same prays .
It's really stupid to use "religions" to make war and I have never understood that !
@Ange Paris
It is not "religions" themselves that are the problem. It is the belief that a particular religion or a creed of a particular religion is the "only" path! -- plus, of course, the self interests of the Priests/Shamans/Mullahs.
Although I am an atheist (or I should now say a "post theist"), I can still find wisdom in "Holy Scriptures" (which were written by men/women - not God/Gods)
I like this bit of the Bhagavad Gita which says : " The paths of men are many - but in the end, they all lead to me."
Barry
so being right wing is assumed to be stupid says the man above who assumes history.
yet the Bahai are respected in Israel... as I believe this is where they keep their Bahá'í World Centre.
lol Israel invented terrorism? What were the 1929 massacres that took place in Safed, Hebron, Jerusalem and Motza. Like the pogroms of past ages, these "disturbances" featured angry crowds stirred up over a religious or other dispute, Imams preaching "Kill the Jews wherever you find them" and mobs screaming "Aleihum" (get them) and "Itbach Al Yahood" - murder the Jews. In a few days, over a hundred Jews were murdered and several hundreds were wounded. What was the ethnic cleansing by Jordan in 1948 of the city of Jerusalem? This was not terrorism? I suppose the terrorism is when the Jews were fighting back?
I don't see Israel threatening Iran to push them into the sea. I don't see Israel threatening to commit genocide on Iran. If Israel has a nuclear energy it is for two reasons. The Jews were smart enough to help develop the technology to start with and they have earned the right to contain the technology because they were responsible with it. Nuclear technology isn't bad if you deserve it.
let them run their country on their own energy... there is no need to allow this regime technology that will allow them to do what they threaten. let Iran eat their own Pistachio nuts.
Ummmm... Noah, consider the logic of those Israelis & outside friends like Daniel Pipes & Sarah Palin -- calling for Israel to bomb Iran. DP surely knows where that will go..... Iran WILL retaliate, and as Hillary Clinton hath prophesied, if it does, she'll be in charge of "obliterating" Iran. (exactly what Pipes & co. have in mind)
Oh never mind.
Back to the very interesting interview, I'd be grateful to know who did the translation? And the very last line is so telling.
"I am absolutely against sanctions; they increase the economic pressure that the people already suffer because of the wrong policies of the government."
Perhaps that's why you've now gone so blind to see Karrubi as no different than Ahmadinejad... because he emphatically and consistently has been opposed to the lobby's agenda....
Ah, but then we'll have Josh telling us that "we don't know Iran" -- becuz K "secretly" wants us to sanction Iran....
[edited by moderator]
Noah...your wholesale condemnation of the Iranian people on the basis of the actions of a few unelected leaders is identical to that of Joseph Goebbels - with whom you have a lot in common...
It is bigots...[who] create the conditions for pogroms, mass murder, terrorism and fascism whether of the Nazi, IRI, or Zionist variety.
As the PM of Israel has recently said - 'Israel has no issue with the people of Iran' - and hence his unequivocal support for the Iranian green movement - and as any intelligent Jew knows - the best outcome of the Iranian crisis in terms of Israel's future security - will be for the current fascist Iranian dictatorship to be replaced with a democratically elected government who overwhelmingly oppose [by 33 million to 10 million votes - see my post above] the export of Iranian Government inspired and financed terrorism.
We also publicly demonstrated - at great danger to our life and limb - our vehement opposition to Iranian exported terrorism on Qods day - in which two particular chants of the people were 'Neither Lebanon nor Gaza - only Iran do we support' - and "we want to be friends with Israel!"
Apart from the bigotry - the very quality that has caused so much death and destruction to your people throughout their impressive history - your comments display an embarrassingly elementary and superficial knowledge of the Iranian situation - you need to brief yourself a little better on the issues affecting Iran before wasting space in this forum again - try this for a start:
http://www.iranian.com/main/2010/jan/green-wave
"Our nation wants a progressive foreign policy and not a hostile, unfriendly foreign policy":
Mousavi - 26 February 2010:
http://www.irannewsnow.com/2010/02/from-mousavis-interview-today-level-headed-but-bold-defiance/
Barry,
Yes, of course we also love our Bahaii citizens. I remember having jewish, christian, bahaii, zoroastrian, and of course muslim classmates ever since elementary school. And until this rigid religious regime took control, we never even discussed our religions, it was considered in poor taste to discuss such a private issue in school.
So I just meant to pick out a couple obvious examples that the readers of this blog may be interested in, I did not mean to exclude anyone. So let me be more exact and sya that "we love all Iranian citizens, period. and we want to have a peaceful, multually beneficial relationship with all other countries, as I personally view country borders the same as we now view tribal borders of a thousand years ago; they are just temporary dividers used by the powerful to benefit themselves."
As far as Israel is concerned, I have nothing against their jewish citizens but I have the same problem with their government's policies toward palestinians as I did with the white South African government's toward blacks. It's not a religious issue, it's a human rights issue.
@Bahman
My problem is with your word "we" . There is obviously a sizable number of your countrymen which do not think like you. This current Iranian regime does not exist in isolation - it is the outcome of many many Iranians thoughts and actions over the past 30 years. It is said that people get the Government that they deserve.
Barry
Did blacks deserve their apartheid regime? By your definition, they did. Did they deserve to be murdered at the hands of the well-armed whites? Of course not.
In the same vain I have never said that we Iranians did not bring IRI to power. We did. And the same Iranians have also been the ones who for 31 years have been arrested, tortured, and killed in their effort for a just, independent, and free life. They are not asking anyone else to die for them. In fact the green movement has been very clear about its opposition to interference by any foreign governments.
I have been criticized, especially by my expat countrymen, for repeatedly stating my belief that a large number of Iranians still support this regime. Their numbers are much smaller than the 95%+ of Iranians who supported the anti-shah revolution (I was one of them), and much smaller than the 85%+ who voted for establishment of the Islamic Republic (I was not one of them). But even at a estimated 20-30% we are still talking about around 20 million humans whose beliefs and wishes cannot and should not be ignored.
I don't wish to suppress this large minority nor I support those who advocate an armed resistence against the regime which in my mind would only result in a bloody civil war that would set Iran back by decades.
The challenge has always been to address the fears of this minority which are fuled by the regime and reinforced by some of the hostile statements from US politicians.
This segment of our population is fearful of foreigners again taking away their independence (just like the CIA-led coup did in 1953) and worry about losing their ability to live their desired Islamic lifestyle (which the US-backed Shah regime attempted to destroy).
So we can fuel these fears by threatening to attack Iran and condemning people's deep beliefs in Islam or we can focus our energy on revealing the regime's financial corruption and human rights violations and enable them to fight back regime's strangle hold on communications inside its borders.
In other words, we can either puff up our chest George Bush style and create more frustrated, misguided terrorists or we can use our brains and walk our talk about freedom and democracy!