Saturday
Nov142009
Enduring America on the Road: A Dublin Discussion on Blogging and Iran
Saturday, November 14, 2009 at 11:55 
I'm taking a couple of days off before a Monday night discussion at the Clinton Institute for American Studies, University College Dublin, on blogging, "new media", and the post-election crisis in Iran. Mike Dunn will be ensuring no fistfights break out on the site and will be waiting for your ideas, comments, and stories. And there will be Sunday features on Iraq, Syria, and Lebanon.I'll be checking in during the weekend and will be back full-time on Monday afternoon.
Reader Comments (36)
Trying to shake off withdrawal symptoms... Now I know why EA's symbol is a cup of coffee .. LOL
If in Ireland sing this song(with a pint of ale) to the tune of "Danny Boy" or "Londonderry Air" and say hello to the lassies...
Persian Girl Away in Ireland
A gentle voice is floating around ethereal
from doom to dune and in the dusty sky,
the summer's gone and all the grave are crying
my only child
must go
and I must hide
but bring me back an Irish four-leaf clover
from all my friends who've known a sorrow too
for it is I who's here on slopes of mountains
on Caspian beech I lean to wave my love to you
But arrive you may when all the fish are dying
from sea of green and in Caspian Sea
and if I'm dead, as shot by beech or elm tree
you'll place a wreath of clover adrift the sea
and drink the wine forbidden with some caviar
your Irish friends will make a wake for me.
If love can skip a stone above Caspian
your love for me will not be any blasphemy
I'll save my love for you until
you are
with me
Please tell responsible people on your Monday discussion that we must support human rights in Iran. The level of atrocity is getting out of control. There are so many barbaric abuses I don't know which one to report. There are numerous hangings most without any real due process an d some for clear political reasons. There is systematic torture and YES YES rape and YES killings in prisons. The families of the executed are treated very badly, too. Let me give you a heart breaking example of Neda's boy friend and how he has been abused, he was put in prison and even in solitary. He refused to sign that Neda was killed by some bizarre western plot. The regime is gone crazy and the result is incredible suffering in Iran. The U.S. has a moral responsibility and should fear not just the Iranian bomb but the systematic abuse of Iranians. We all as humans do. I know history a bit and later on we will look back and we must face the consequences of what we did or did not do today. Believe the abused in Iran affects the peace process in the ME, you are wrong if y ou think a strong Iran will listen and cooperate on peace if you let it alone regarding its abuses and given int to their ridiculous statements that internal affairs of Iran are off limits. Were the internal affairs of Nazi Germany off limits that humanity suffered the gas chambers in prisons. I am beginning to sound like a broken record, but I must and humans must respond. If this is just idealism let it be. Maybe some out there in positions of power will read and may agree that action, real action now against the abuses of human rights in Iran is necessary as a way to safeguard future peace.
PS Sorry I'm tired, there are a a few typos, but should be clear.
Hossein, we hear you, but do the politicians ? Do they ever act for human rights ? I don't think so. It's up to the citizens and other organisations inside and outside to act. This doesn't prevent politicians from making a few comments, but their interests are always for other things, otherwise Burma's junta would no longer be there.
pessimist,
During the Cold War, the Soviet Union bankrolled tyrannies around the world. We supported opposing groups -- it made a difference. We air lifted supplies to maintain West Berlin and that made a difference. President Kennedy spoke in Berlin and said, "I am a Berliner".
{although, as an aside, there's a funny story about that:
In the U.S. there is fried chop meat on
a bun traditionally call a "Hamburger". This makes for
a complication: A person visiting from Hamburg
Germany if asked "where are you from" might answer
"I am a Hamburger" thinking he is saying the
equivalent of "I am a New Yorker" because "er" is the
usual ending to many names. So when President John
Kennedy went to West Berlin, he thought he was
saying, "I am a Berliner". But what he actually said
was "I am a jelly donut".}
Speaking for the public stage is always a tricky business, but certainly worth trying.
You're right about Burma, and we see that China is now the main troublemaker in the world because they support tyrants around the world to get natural resources for themselves. But indeed we should speak out about Burma, Tibet, and Iran... Maybe we won't always be a jelly donut.
[...] 15, 2009 — Ali Khamenei Some of the chirping birds have left the Enduring nest of infidels to lecture in a Green glen. This Triple Alliance with American culture seems a puzzle, but we are [...]
@doug,
"During the Cold War, the Soviet Union bankrolled tyrannies around the world. We supported opposing groups — it made a difference. We air lifted supplies to maintain West Berlin and that made a difference."
That's right while the Soviets supported "tyrannies" the Americans supported "victims" like the West Berliners AND the Shah, Suharto in Indonesia, Mobutu in Zaire, Somoza in Nicaragua, Batista in Cuba, Franco in Spain, Pinochet in Chile, Diem in South Vietnam, the military dictators in Guatemala and their genocidal campaign against the Natives, the Military in Argentina which "dissapeared" their opponents, Israeli expansionism and settlements in conquered lands, the terrorists UNITA in Angola and Renamo in Mozambique, Papa Doc and Baby Doc in Haiti, the KMT in Taiwan, the Greek Colonels, military coups in Turkey and Brazil, Death Squads in El Salvador and most of Latin America etc., etc. One can go on but it already sounds like a Billy Joel song.
Samuel
What you say is correct.
Without examining too closely the details of your statement, both sides of the "Cold War" did bad things - in the name of their "fight to the death". You will also remember that the UK totally destroyed Dresden from the air during WW2, killing many civilians - and the Germans and Russians spared no effort against one another during the Battle for Stalingrad.
Now - Iran supports Hezbollah and Hamas (although I suspect you would either deny this or see no problem with it). After all, the US supports Israel.
What I do know is that 2 wrongs never add up to a right. But, as humans, we continue to repeat history. We all never learn from it. Perhaps it would be better for the rest of the world if the Jewish/Christian concept of Armageddon and the Muslim concept of the Mahdi were visited upon that God forsaken part of the World called by Westerners, "the Middle East". I understand that Mr Ahmajinedad also has some similar thoughts in that direction.
Barry
Doug, Barry, Samuel
True for the Berlin airlift, a true humanitarian effort, but, still with a political interest.
I have a german friend who was 6 yrs old under the Dresden fire bombs. She got separated from her mother and sister and miraculously was saved by someone who took her to a cellar. They previously lived in Poland and managed to escape the Russians (and their massacres of germans) in Poland and travelled always west, finally ending up in the west side of the future iron curtain.
Yet she came to France as a young graduate in the first wave of cultural exchanges to start the healing of the war, in Europe. She married a frenchman and has stayed here.
So maybe we can learn from history and the whole mess in the middle east will someday also have young people who want to try and forget the previous wars and scars and hostilities. This IS possible and even if governments work mainly for their interests, it's still usually for peace as they also want wealth and confort for their country whatever..
It will happen sooner or later.
Europe is a good exemple, fall of wall etc, was very recent, considering..
Barry,
"Now – Iran supports Hezbollah and Hamas (although I suspect you would either deny this or see no problem with it). After all, the US supports Israel."
This is not about two wrongs don't make a right. Hamas did not go into the Polish Ghetto or to Bucharest to slaughter or disposses jews. The German Nazis and the Romanian Iron Guard were the ones responsible for those atrocities. Yet it was the Zionists who came to Palestine and in an interesting example of self-imposed blindness saw a "land without a people for a people without a land". One Zionist propagandist (Joan Peters) even wroted a famous book claiming that Palestine was basically empty before the arrival of Zionist Settlers.
Hezbollah did not even exist before Sharon the butcher of Sabra and Shatila invaded Lebanon in 1982. Shiites in South Lebanon even naively welcomed the Israeiis peacefully in the early stages of the invasion. Of course they soon grew tired of living under the Israeli boot.
Pessimist
"So maybe we can learn from history and the whole mess in the middle east will someday also have young people who want to try and forget the previous wars and scars and hostilities. This IS possible"
You are actually an optimist. It can be done and has been done. Australia has been at war with both Turkey and Japan, in 2 different wars. The Turks were/are still regarded as worthwhile adversaries ( even though they inflicted a terrible price on the Australians )- while, for the older generation, there WAS much hatred for the Japanese and their actions. But, time has moved on - and the animosity has gone, especially amongst the younger generations.
But - unfortunately, an egg, once scrambled, cannot be unscrambled. History cannot be undone. Regardless how much anguish still exists (in Iran, of all places?????) over the creation of the State of Israel and the history that led up to it, that egg will not be unscrambled. Samuel will I believe one day come to understand that - and accept it - or perhaps he may never. Perhaps he wants to continue the "resistance" for ever - when in the meantime other Arab States have come to an understanding with Israel whereby they can co-exist.
At what point do both sides of an argument say "enough".
Sigh! - this could go round and round forever, couldn't it. Probably will. But meantime, it seems that there is a growing number of young Iranians who are very unhappy with their circumstances. I have heard them referred to as a "demographic timebomb".
Barry
Barry,
The “demographic timebomb” is actually happening right now in Palestine where the Palestinians will soon constitute a majority between the Jordan River and the Mediterranean. At that point the Palestinians can elect a Prime Minister and change the character, nature and even the name of the state. The Zionists will have two choices: full blown apartheid (former president Jimmy Carter has a book on this) or ethnic cleansing on a massive scale, which is to say genocide since the Palestinians won't leave peacefully.
Yes the events in Palestine matter a great deal in the Islamic world whether in Iran or even further away in Malaysia or Indonesia for the same reason that all Africans (even those 1000's of miles away) cared deeply about what Apartheid did to black South Africans. To be sure there were African leaders during Apartheid that came to "an understanding" and "co-existence" with Pretoria just like you see now with some Arab "leaders".
We want an understanding and co-existence with a dismantled Zionist state, a state where Zionism has joined its close relative Apartheid in the "dustbin of History" to use Trotsky's famous line.
Fortunately with Hamas, Hezbollah and Demographics on our side that day should be here soon. A great deal of the credit will undoubtedly have to go to the Iranian Revolution for its unwavering support for the resistance even as some Quislings within and without wanted to abandon the Palestinians.
Hi Samuel
"WE" ????? Who is "we" ? Who are you speaking for??
Barry
Barry,
I am being a bit presumptuous but I'm speaking for Millions of Muslims who will not accept anything short of a Zionist state that is fully dismantled. That by the way does not mean throwing anyone into the sea but it does mean that the control of the state will pass to those who were disposessed which is to say the Palestinian people.
By the way I'm delighted that Australia is getting along so well with Japan. And to think it only took two Nuclear weapons dropped on defenseless cities.
Samuel
"And to think it only took two Nuclear weapons dropped on defenseless cities"
It worked - it was surprising how quickly they changed their attitudes at the time. Now, everybody is quite friendly.
Although, my now dearly departed English ex Father-in-Law took his hatred of the French to the grave. He forgave the Germans very soon after WW2 ended - but could never forgive the French for their surrender to and accommodation of Hitler. Although he was a simple man - he understood and recognized the evil inherent in Regimes based on a controlling ideology. I don't think he would have liked the Iranian regime much either.
Barry
Barry is correct and his father's sentiment that of millions today. Samuel should stop pretending that he speaks of millions of Muslims. In fact Muslims are becoming fed up with this culture of hate and of death. No more in our names will anyone threaten to throw people into the sea. No. We desire peace and we no longer want any part of this obscurantist backward culture of death. Enough!
Hossein
BEWARE!
Elsewhere I have said that Iran 2009 is comparable to Germany 1933.
The sentiments expressed here http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20091116/ap_on_re_mi_ea/ml_iran_guards_in_the_media regarding the Revolutionary Guard remind me of the lead up to the famous German " Night of the Long Knives" mid 1934.
You may desire peace - but so did others in 1933
Barry
Barry - I guess optimist or pessimist depends what side of the bed I get out of.
BTW another exemple would be Ireland, they managed in the end.
True, about scrambled eggs, I'll think of that when I make them. But I think I'll have omelette tonight :-)
Hey Barry.
I gotta disagree with you with the notion that Iran is comparable to Germany 1933. The link you provided supports the claim that the june coup`d`etat was a consequence of a higher level power struggle between the Guards and Hashemi over the economy. Hashemi never accepted the 2005 results, Hashemi`s economical influnce started to diminsh with AN in office, AN provided more than 100 no-bid construction contracts to the IRGC. My point is, this was about economical control over iran. As for the IRGC possessing a threat to Isael, I don`t see it that way. this is not an ideological battle against Israel. It is rather strategical. But Iran needs it to be portrayed as ideological, so it can have appeal amongst the Sunnis and the rest of the islamic world. Hamas and Hezbollah is just a part of Irans imperial plan to become the sole Hegemonic power in the region. This Iranian ambition dosen`t possess a threat to Israels existence, because this is purely strategical for Iran. Just look at the proposal made by Iran to US in 2003. Iran said they would disarm hezbollah, islamic jihad,hamas, and most importantly, they would recognize the state of Israel. (as I mentioned before to our dear friend samuel, Iran don`t care about Palestine).
in conclusion, SL and AN are a bunch of Quislings, They will sellout the palestinians, the lebanse and the rest of the moslem world if it is in their interest, and for those reasons they are not comparable to nazi germany.
Hi Shangool
Thanks for those alternative thoughts - I will admit that analogies and comparisons always have their weak points. The essential points of similarity for me are that AN was "anointed/appointed" by SL (Similar to German President appointing Hitler as Chancellor), both countries had/developed strong controlling ideologies (Nazism in Germany, Islamicism in Iran), both countries had human masses who were/became fanatics of that idealogy, both countries/idealogies allowed criminal minds to take advantage of the situation in the country and both countries were militaristic.
Sometimes - it is a case of "If it looks like a duck, walks like a duck and quacks like a duck - then it probably is a duck" .. BUT at other times it can also be "If it looks like a duck, walks like a duck and quacks like a duck - it may still not be a duck"
"As for the IRGC possessing a threat to Israel, I don`t see it that way. this is not an ideological battle against Israel." ---- Hmmm - I think that you may need to convince the Israelis of that. You may also need to convince the IRGC of it - they are dense enough to think that they ARE actually a threat. They have only ever fought a war with Iraq - and a war with Israel would be an entirely different thing, especially if the Israelis do think that their existence is threatened. They don't like that at all - and the IRGC would soon realize their folly.
Barry
Hi Barry
"both countries had/developed strong controlling ideologies (Nazism in Germany, Islamicism in Iran), both countries had human masses who were/became fanatics of that idealogy, "
if by Islamicism you mean that Iran wants to spread Islam to the rest of the world, then there isn`t any strong controlling ideology called Islamicism in Iran, and by no means any human mass who adhere to this ideology. 3 quarters of the footsoldiers in the IRGC voted for Khatami. If you wanna compare any state to Nazi Germany, look no further than Israel.( I am not Samuel) They are by all means much more comparable to Nazi Germany than Iran. more than 50 years of history prove that.
"both countries/idealogies allowed criminal minds to take advantage of the situation in the country and both countries were militaristic."
This was a military coup, its not like the IRGC asked the people for permission and the people allowed them to come to power.
"They have only ever fought a war with Iraq – and a war with Israel would be an entirely different thing, especially if the Israelis do think that their existence is threatened. They don’t like that at all – and the IRGC would soon realize their folly."
Please elloborate. do you think that Israel will nuke Iran? Israel is militarly superior to Iran, no doubt, but Israel cannot take on Iran on a fule scale war. they`re best hope is to delay their nuclear program for a few years, enough to outlast the regime. The Israels do believe that their existence is threatened, but they still haven`t decided when to strike, cause they know what great ramificartions it would have.
If it is like you believe, that Iran has a human mass who has this fanatic ideology. Then Israel is screwed. But as I stated before, I see no real threat.
"Please elloborate. do you think that Israel will nuke Iran? Israel is militarly superior to Iran, no doubt, but Israel cannot take on Iran on a fule scale war. they`re best hope is to delay their nuclear program for a few years, enough to outlast the regime. The Israels do believe that their existence is threatened, but they still haven`t decided when to strike, cause they know what great ramificartions it would have."
No - no nukes. But what makes you think that Israel would be alone? - not only is there the US forces to consider (as support) , but also that of Egypt, Jordan and Saudi Arabia. There could easily be "open skies" in a direct line between Israel and Iran. http://www.presstv.ir/detail.aspx?id=111243§ionid=351020104 on 14 Nov and http://www.presstv.ir/detail.aspx?id=111444§ionid=351020104 two days later
Barry
Barry
Jordan and Saudi Arabia are militarly weak to give any support for an attack. not only that, it will be impossible for those regimes to support an Israeli attack against a Muslim country. As for the Gulf state sheikdomes, they fear Iran too much to support an attack. what worries the US is the oil, Iran has threatened to take out the Saudi oil facilites, to close down Hormuz. A retribution from Iran against the oil wil bring US to its knees. It will of course be suicidal for Iran as well, but if Iran is like you contend, controlled by fanatics, then they are willing to commit suicide.
Do not forget that Iran has already fought a war against Israel and US, and Iran won.
Shangool,
Saudi Arabia was the staging ground for U.S. in the first Gulf War for attack on a Muslim country, Iraq. I do not think being Muslim will matter. Iran Mullah regime is hated by all surrounding Muslim nations.
Please clarify your last statement, “Do not forget that Iran has already fought a war against Israel and US, and Iran won." Which war was that?