Friday
Sep182009
Qods Day: The Discussion Continues
Friday, September 18, 2009 at 19:28
The Latest from Iran (18 September): Qods Day
NEW Iran Video: Qods Day Protests (18 September)
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First and foremost, a big thanks to each and everyone of you for making this the best day in Enduring America's history (and possibly a good day in Iran's history, but that's for you to debate). Response has been so great that this space is now opened up to continue discussion --- earlier debate is in our Update thread.
NEW Iran Video: Qods Day Protests (18 September)
Receive our latest updates by email or RSS SUBSCRIBE TO OUR FEED
Buy Us A Cup of Coffee? Help Enduring America Expand Its Coverage and Analysis
First and foremost, a big thanks to each and everyone of you for making this the best day in Enduring America's history (and possibly a good day in Iran's history, but that's for you to debate). Response has been so great that this space is now opened up to continue discussion --- earlier debate is in our Update thread.
Reader Comments (79)
Thanks.
"...dependent on how the guards re-act in the next 48 hours."
Do you think Eid ul-Fitr is the reason for the arrests reported in this morning's thread? The timing seemed strange.
Apparently there is confusion about Montazeri’s grandchildren who were arrested earlier
I've replied to Strider's comment on the dangers to the Internet in Iran with a last (hopefully) update for the day.
That leads me to drop objectivty for an important (for me) moment. If this crackdown on communications persist, let me know what EA can do to help. And please pass the word --- we will keep all communications in complete confidence.
The biggest of thank yous to all of you. EA more than doubled its one-day record for pageviews. More importantly, I think every one of you contributed to what I hope will be an important moment for those inside and outside Iran.
S.
Scott, With regards Mousavi's picture, I think it's by now obvious that he was not at an opposition protest (lack of green and lack of 'V's.) I'm totally convinced that he was brought there by the regime for their own propaganda purposes. Someone on Anon raised the question about him being under house arrest, and therefore not free to attend the right protest. If he is under house arrest that would explain his absence and lack of physical leadership over recent months. (I don't actually think he is a natural leader anyway)
A new Internet crackdown? Not to make light of a serious issue, but I bet they wish they'd thought of that last night, before today's video leaked out of the country. So far the regime seems to be losing the battle to control the Internet — and I hope they keep losing.
To Afshin and Enduring America,
I wanted to thank both of you for the great news on this event. I just found this site today and I can say without a doubt it was the most informed and accurate reporting on the events. My good friends family still lives in Tehran and some of the news I got back confirmed everything said here. In particular they were all laughing when state video was aired with no sound because to do so would have shown the numbers shouting down with russia down with the dictator. You have also got to love the video showing the basiji on megaphones saying death to Israel then the crowd roars death to Russia. The Green Wave certaintly knows how to creatively protest. Its a shame the western media fell into the trap of reporitng A Ma Dinner Jackets(Ahamadinejad) rants against Israel instead of the courage of the protestors to protest in mass when told not to under threat.
When this all started in June my friend who has family in Tehran gave me information that was leaked out by a friend in another states embassy. I posted it to CNN Ireport at: http://www.ireport.com/docs/DOC-277780 on June 21st. Nicole Saidi from CNN contacted me and they wanted to do a feature article on it. My friend ended up backing out after the Basiji paid her mom and brother a visit and issued threats. Her mom once worked for the Shah and her brother worked for a couple of reform papers that had been shut down. My friend told me that if she went forward and they found out her family would likely be killed based on the threats made. I will be contacting Nicole via email but if you guys having any good intel I would encourage you to contact Nicole at:
Nicole Saidi
Senior Associate Producer
CNN.com - User Participation
nicole.saidi@turner.com
404-878-5835 | aim: cnnicoooole
She may be mad I gave this out but in light on the events occuring I feel it is justified to do so. Keep up the great work and my prayers are for all fighting for justice and basic human rights in Iran!
Thx
Bill
william.davit@printsoft.com
I wondered what the turn out would be given the history of violent crackdowns, but again I remain in awe of the courage of the people in Iran and look forward to the day I can pay my respects to the victims in a free Iran.
I didn't know much about Karroubi before the elections, but at this point there is no one in Iran I respect more. The man has the heart of a lion and his refusal to give in to the extreme pressure from the government is inspirational.
I hope one day he will be remembered in the same vain as Gandhi, Mandela, etc. but ofcourse that depends on how this all turns out. Karroubi Zendeh Bash
I owe EA a huge donation as your coverage has been amazing. It's been a great day.
So, media roundup time kids! From what I saw, CNN paid attention to this, BBC America led with it, ABC News (on TV) had a good report by Sciutto (helps that they have two good ME reporters following it- Sciutto & Setrakian).
NBC's context? The nuke program, of course! Fail, utter fail.
The hilarious (in a dark way) thing was every outlet trying to explain this to the audience. "Gee, y'all ignored it for two months, and NOW it's back?"
Although Mackey at The Lede blog (NYT) knew what was happening. Kudos to him.
Anyone care to discuss Raffers (Hashemi)? He, apparently, marches with pro-gov. forces. Now, is it simply b/c he holds two gov. positions (Assembly and Expediency), or is he a) flipping or b) as usual, playing, to some degrees, all sides?
I don't blame Mousavi. I'm thinking he has minimal control as to his movement in times like today.
Hashemi hasn't been mentioned here today. Haven't seen any reports. Sounds like you saw something ugly. What's up?
IMHO, Hashemi always acts in the way that will create maximum ambiguity about where he stands and what he is doing
There has been discussion about whether pics of Mousavi were current or old. Also debate about whether he has been under house arrest or was under duress if/when he made an appearance today. It's not clear how much freedom he has. Scott is planning to do an analysis of his situation tomorrow.
Amy,
There are several videos of Moussavi at the protest. My Iranian friend watched them and stated it was the Quds protest and it appeared he was in the middle of the pro regime protestors. She indicated her mother believed he was intentionally placed at the location. In short he wasn’t given a choice if he wanted to participate. What’s odd is that the other major reform players didn’t seem to have the same problem. Maybe it was dumb luck that Moussavi ended up at this location. Having said that I wouldn’t put it past the regime to single him out to place him for a well placed propoganda piece. Here is a link to a CNN video showing it: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZS0ilJRupN4. While my friends mother could not confirm the story many have accepted that Moussavi is under house arrest.
thx
bill
Thanks, Bill
It's interesting that after the first few marches, Mousavi has not attended (probably was prevented from attending) while Mehdi Karoubi & Khatami usually can appear, even if they are hustled away quickly. Any thoughts?
Amy,
Its politics. Khatami and Karroubi obvisouly have more weight within the existing regime thus its harder to clamp down on them without a backlash. Moussavi, from what I can gather, did not have this same type of clout going into the election. I believe the majority of his clout has been earned through popular support. Taking this into context you have to understand many of the hardliners don't trully respect the will of the people just that of the system. Ayatollah Mohammad Taqi Mesbah-Yazdi, Ahmadinejad's spiritual advisor once said "It doesn't matter what the people think. The people are ignorant sheep" from: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mohammad-Taqi_Mesbah-Yazdi . This guy is also know as the Professor Crocodile by the people for his involvement in the chain of murders event in Iran and his belief that elected officials are against the system. Along with Ahmandinejad he was also to have been reported speaking to other hardliners trying to convince them it was alright to rape protestors because they were against god--from: http://gatewaypundit.blogspot.com/2009/09/ahmadinejads-spiritual-advisor-raping.html. Circling back to Moussvi, it's not a stretch to believe the regime set up Moussavi for a phot op to further pander their propoganda. Moussavi is the leader of the movement so the regime is going to do what ever it can to make him look bad. What your seeing is the ugly effects of political islam in which the system is what matters not the people. The regime is in thrall to system and thus to perpetuate it they will go to extreme ends to keep it going. The good news is that a large number of the clerical establishment, which the regime bases its legitimacy on, are starting to shift over to the reform side. Only time will tell and hopefully we are seeing the begining of the end for the regime.
Thx
bill
The comment by Ayatollah Mohammad Taqi Mesbah-Yazdi has been shown to be unfounded. See this report: http://enduringamerica.com/2009/09/04/iran-satire-becomes-news-ahmadinejads-ayatollah-and-prisoner-rape/" rel="nofollow">Iran: Satire Becomes “News” – Ahmadinejad’s Ayatollah and Prisoner Rape
The rest of your points are very interesting
@ Scott
Thank you for reopening the discussion.
@Amy
I'll surely look at those videos when the internet is back to normal. But one thing that I always believed in is that there are exaggerating reports from the incidents inside iran from both sides. another thing is people in Tehran and parts of some other big cities in Iran do not represent all of Iranians, nor do Iranians who live outside Iran; but due to more technological advances they have in hand they can express their ideas more than the rest. I think both groups have the right to express themselves freely and equally but unfortunately the extremists on both sides do not let it happen. difference of opinion do not make a non-iranian out of an iranian. So I respect all opinions of people with whom I share a great land and a facinating culture.
Amy,
Thanks for the heads up. I always suspected it but was never able to find anything stating it was false. I was inclined initially to believe it based on the fact that the regime has a policy of not killing virgins. To get around this hurdle it is widely documented the regime employed guards to partake in a temporary marriage with the accused on death row. They would then of course have to consumate(rape) the marriage to make it legal. Here is a video among a few I found documenting this practice: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GC9fi6d6O7c Knowing that it I guess I fell into the trap of believing the hype. Check out this site if you have not already seen it: http://iranbodycount.blogspot.com/. It documents the deaths in Iran and almost all the names match those released by the reform movement.
thx
Bill
I guess you get lemons you make lemonade. All this speculation about "millions" and "millions" of greenies on the street turns into thousands or even tens of thousands for green and it is now a great victory for the reformists. O---K sure everyone buys that.
Seriously the greens must be devastated that they did not gain any new "martyrs" to exploit over and over again. How desperately their cameras must have searched for one. How anxiously they must have waited for that one face which they could flash around the world, the latest victim of the fascist mad dogs which run Iran, blood dripping from their fangs.
The fact is the greens scare no one. Their "death to the dictator" chanting has lost all shock value and grown tiresome. Go ahead, knock yourselves out, go shout it from the rooftops if you want.
Most importantly the green leadership is now revealed to be a troika of big time lying charlatans. If Mousavi told me what a fantastic cloudless day it was going to be I would run like the wind to buy a raincoat.
Hey Samuel,
Nice of you to stop by & spread a little sunshine. I think you're the one making the lemonade at the moment, but I'll have a little sip. Have a good evening ;)
(or good morning, depending on where you are)
Samuels idea of friends are Amadinejhad, Chavez, Mugabe, Bin Laden, Kim Jong, Bashir, and any other dictator who will go to no end to stay in power. His favortie organizations all time are the SS, Gestapo, KGB, Basiji, and the Repulican guards. His formative years were spent watching the Hamas Mickey Mouse tell kids their life long goal should be to blow up innocent civilians. His favorite books are the Protocols of the Elders of Zion and Mein Kamph. His most notable accomplishment was shooting down the legions of spy pigeons sent by Israel to Iran. His future goals are to become a devote Salafist or Twelver and hasten the coming of the apocolypse so he can bath in the blood of innocents! God that was fun to write!
Samuel's fine. We agree to disagree.
"Samuel’s fine. We agree to disagree."
I agree with that!
Support: Amadinejhad (sometimes yes, sometimes no) Chavez (Absolutely), Mugabe (No), Bin Laden (Absolutely no), Kim Jong(no), Castro (Yes), Lenin(at times), Stalin (no), Mao (at times), Hitler (absolutely not).
Interesting video of the Ayatollah Khomeini talking about Qods day. http://www.shiatv.net/view_video.php?viewkey=0bb372d136f651af0ac9&page=&viewtype=&category=
(WARNING: GRAPHIC PICTURES OF PALESTINIAN VICTIMS)
Samuel,
I watched your video and it was heart wrenching. I actually protested against the whole gaza scenario. While I understand Israel's actions I still cannot accept the fact that a people, the jews, can opress knowing what they do. It's mind boggling considering they should know better considering the Holocaust. I am also glad you saw my post as just an absurd satirical response to yours. Taking the Israeli Palestinian conflict aside have you in all sincerity taken the time to view any of the videos on the situation in Iran at CNN Ireport, youtube, and many of the reform sites? While they pale in comparision to the palestinian's plight they need to be taken into context for what they are. It is simply a group of citizens engraged they are being ignored. The regime is doing everything it can to keep the "system" in place. This system wants to perpetute itself and will go to extremes to do so. It's quite a lot like a number of fascist regimes past and present. Being Lithuanian I have heard first hand from my relatives what it was like to live under an oppressive regime. A large portion of the Iranians simply want to be heard and are sick of the "selections" that are called elections. It's ironic because while Moussavi is a reformer he is till part of a system that killed tens of thousands of political opponents over the years. Yet despite that the people are clinging to it because they are so desperate for basic human rights denied by the current regime. What we all saw today was people not letting their government deflect internal problems with those outside. Like many in the Middle East they are tired of the association by proxy with the Palestinian issue. I read an article about Darfur and Somalia in which an Saudi intellectual was absolutely beside himself over the selective outrage in the Islamic world. He wondered "should we throw a Jew into conflict" to finally get some attention. I agree with him because while the entire Israeli Palestinian conflict has claimed 50,000 lives since 1948 it is dwarfed by the over 2 Million dead in Sudan since the late 90's and the 400,000 dead in Somalia since early 2000. If your not already aware it should be noted 2% of the entire UN budget goes to Palestine every year, 3% is used for the hundereds of millions elsewhere, and per capita the pals get more aid than any other group on the planet. To boot it's the evil empire, the west, who pays 85% of their bills every month. For a perspective find some pics on a refugee camp in Darfur(tents, desert, starving people) and compare it to any number of palestinian refugee camps(multi story concrete buildings, satelite dishes, and no starving people.) Yet when presented with all that evidence the Islamic worlds(and most of the rest of the world) response is a collective yawn! The response is "hey what about Palestine." Palestine has morphed from a humanitarian crisis into a political one largely influenced by religion. The Iranians like me are tired of hearing about some other issue when they are being killed, raped, and denied basic rights. Quds is about oppression, what better day to air your grievance even if it means naming your own country the oppresor.
Samuel is no idiot. he is however blinded by faith in a mudering regime fighting BAD with WORSE... I am hoping one day he'll understand that
U should not fight injustice with injustice
U should not force people your ideas of what is good
U can not force a religion
U can not MURDER in the name of God
Even if the goals are good they do not Justify the means
etc etc etc
I am OK with the fact that U attack the Green leaders (heck I welcome it we all know Karoubi, Khatami and Mousavi have had blood on their hands) but dont turn a blind eye to the crimes done by Khamenei and the Guards. The Crimes these men have commited is well beyond any non-believer. I seriously do not belive that these men are them selves true believers. Either they must have many sleepless nights or their claim to religion must be false.
Look in your heart and tell me if these men are true believers in GOD, I am not even mentioning Islam. How can they do there things and still claim to believe in God and what God stands for? and if they do believe in god how can they ever face god after all these crimes ? How can U face God when U your self turn a blind eye to all their crimes for the so called Greater Cause !!? That greater cause is only achievable when people like u and me dont turn an eye on the crimes done around our selves by our own leaders.
I am NOT a believer my self but I dare say I am a better Muslim then any of these men. Can u ?
Everytime someone brings up a point of the crimes being commited by the Guards, you reply with crimes done by others !!! its like two kids fighting, why did you hit him.. well he hit me first...
You want a better world Samuel, Start with your self. start with your own leaders... least u can do is aknowledge their crimes.