Qods Day: The Discussion Continues

The Latest from Iran (18 September): Qods Day
NEW Iran Video: Qods Day Protests (18 September)

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First and foremost, a big thanks to each and everyone of you for making this the best day in Enduring America's history (and possibly a good day in Iran's history, but that's for you to debate). Response has been so great that this space is now opened up to continue discussion --- earlier debate is in our Update thread.

Comments

[Bill Davit]

Afshin,

I was afraid some may view it that way. I would like to note my two best friends happen to be Shia and Iranian. My immersion into the world of Islam (largely orthodox Sunni) was the direct result of a Saudi friend who said we could not be friends anymore citing a verse in the Quran. I found that verse about not taking allies amongst the people of the book and his actions clearly indicated a salafist take on them. What he did was take it literally completely ignoring the context of it namely the fact it was brought up during a time of war. He now attends a wahhabi influenced mosque in Chicago. Since then I have read the Quran, several Hadith sources such as Bukhari, reliance of the traveler, and about 20 other works. That effort was a desire to learn but also to in fact disprove his thought pattern which I found much support for.

I don't hold my opinion to the absolute truth but just my understanding of Islamic scripture as I read it. I tried not to take things to literally and always checked other sources online. I am actually looking into taking a couple of night courses on Islam to further my knowledge. Having said that my statements are largely directed towards political islamists such as the salafists, wahhabis, regime in Iran, Taliban, Muslim Brotherhood, and assortment of other fanatics. It is my belief that most Muslims don't buy into their ideology. However, as I see it the problem is these islamist organizations often have inordiante control of the Islamic world and thus the problems.

Google "western civilization has liberated mankind" and read this article by a Saudi intellectual. Note towards the bottom his statement that the islamic world has largely fallen prey to politics of Islam instead of the religion. He further states many Muslims would find that the first rightly guided caliphs have much in common with Western civilization. I firmly believe this and my stance if you read my previous post again is formed around the whole premise that the political aspect espoused by the Islamists has largely hijacked Islam!

Their is much beauty in Islam. Many don't realize Islam was the first to trully champion human rights. Much of early western law in fact borrowed heavily from Shariah. I also believe us in the West can learn a great deal from the strength exhibited by Muslims pertaining to family life, morals, and common decency. In turn I believe the best lesson the West has to teach is the idea of Univeral Human Rights regardless of what faith you follow. It's ironic that their is so much religious persecution of other faiths in the Islamic world(ie Bahais in Iran or Hindus and Christians in India for example) and these Muslims who do this forget "There is no compulison in religion." The fanatics say it was abrogated but forget abrogation does not mean its not true!

What your seeing in Iran is a manifestation of Political Islam hijacking Islam and the people to serve its own purposes. Khomeini's rallying cry was that the shah was not listenig to the people. Khamenei has forgotten this! The system is not to be served by the people the system is to serve the people. Allah is the head honcho not Khamenei or his system! I am not against Islam but actually in favor of it because I trully believe religion is trully good for mankind. I just speak out against those who use it as a supremacist manifesto to ply their trade because they cannot accept others don't believe as they do.

On your points about the American Indians and Mayans you are 100% correct and I should have mentioned it(especially so considering I am a small part Cherokee.) Their lands were usurped as well. We are all guilty and the West lately has a lot to answer for. For to long the CIA has been plotting(operation Ajax among others), our foreign policy creating disasters, and our corporations plundering parts of the world often to the detriment of the indigenous people. The good news is we have tools like the Internet so none of this nasty stuff goes unoticed anymore! I wish you all the best.

thx
bill

[Bill Davit]

Samuel,

You are 100% correct on Khatami. Its why Obama rightly stated the policy of Iran probably would not have changed much regardless who won. What I think were seeing now is a "Gorbachev" effect with the current reform leaders. I think the people are so desperate for change that they have latched onto these people and actually influenced them. Moussavi and Karroubi seem the most genuinely affected by this as shown by their defiance. I do worry that Khatami and Rafsanjani(especially so) are looking at this from a political angle to settle old scores and attain more power. I hope not but thats my worry. I don't want to see the everday people of Iran be used as they have been used so much over the years. They are a great nation and deserve to be free and respected!

[Amy]

Samuel
Re. your comment #74, the subject was mass internment of citizens as enemies of the state, not justification of everything the US does wrong. I didn't say we have taken care of all injustice here. I said things change as societies develop, not that we are fully developed. We have a long way to go.

In your arguments, you often justify the acts of the regime by saying another government does the same thing or worse. It's not a valid argument, but it serves to divert attention from the issue of how the regime treats citizens who disagree with the government and the election results., For that reason I included item 4 in my comment #69

4)
Even if there was as imminent threat to Iran and even if it was morally justifiable to intern everybody who disagrees with the government, there is no earthly way to justify torture, rape and killing of prisoners. Even if every other country on earth is doing it, there still is no justification. It’s just flat out wrong

In your heart you know it's wrong.

[Amy]

If I murder my child, does my act make it morally excusable for you to murder your child?