Friday
Sep182009
Qods Day: The Discussion Continues
Friday, September 18, 2009 at 19:28
The Latest from Iran (18 September): Qods Day
NEW Iran Video: Qods Day Protests (18 September)
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Buy Us A Cup of Coffee? Help Enduring America Expand Its Coverage and Analysis
First and foremost, a big thanks to each and everyone of you for making this the best day in Enduring America's history (and possibly a good day in Iran's history, but that's for you to debate). Response has been so great that this space is now opened up to continue discussion --- earlier debate is in our Update thread.
NEW Iran Video: Qods Day Protests (18 September)
Receive our latest updates by email or RSS SUBSCRIBE TO OUR FEED
Buy Us A Cup of Coffee? Help Enduring America Expand Its Coverage and Analysis
First and foremost, a big thanks to each and everyone of you for making this the best day in Enduring America's history (and possibly a good day in Iran's history, but that's for you to debate). Response has been so great that this space is now opened up to continue discussion --- earlier debate is in our Update thread.
Reader Comments (79)
@Afshin
Though I agree to most of what you've said, I feel the complexity of religion and politics is going far beyond your points. Everybody mixing both up will hardly ever try to justify his/her own doings in front of GOD, but in relation to very earthly, while political, matters of the system. The part GOD comes to play in this is that S/HE is chosen/misused to be the irrefutable legitimation of it all.
We saw that in absolute monarchies, with Georg W. and a lot of dictators around. These "chosen few" did not ask for legitimation from the people, they simply engaged GOD for doing the job - much simpler and easier to achieve. Just remember how hard a job it was to use eg. ideology instead ;)
So please, do not take GOD into any account. S/HE is not involved at all. It's all mankind, and it's all liable to mankind. Nobody - however advanced in religious education - knows for sure, what GOD would have done in which case and/or if S/HE would have acted at all. Or do you know anybody having proof knowledge of GOD's plans?
@ Paleene
I my self have little to nothing with religion. I believe in goodness of ones self and being able to look at your self with a sence of pride in the mirror everyday regardless of the fact if there is a god or not.
and true one does not know what Gods plans are or IF there is even a god. BUT all great religion in the world would not allow these barbaric acts to be commited. These men call them selves religious, they call them selves Muslim !! Is samuel en true believer, if he is, then there no way in hell to approve these act.
Samuel same as the Guards claim the want to improve the world, let them forst look at their own acts and see if they can justify that in forn t of god.
- How is Raping of young men and women justifible in front of god (according to any religion) ?
- How is killing thousands of people justifible because of being a political activist ?
These people follow a religion and they follow a prophet so they do claim to have a understanding of what god wants. and I dare say according to any religion these acts are not justifible in front of god.
I totally agree all of what you said Afshin and for that you earned my respect. I am not a muslim but I respect all religious beliefs. I do believe that people need something to believe as their guide towards the journey of their own life. Yet as I see it in Iran, the current leaders used religion to spread hatred to the world. They keep saying that they are peaceful but keep on shouting death for those who disagree with them. They justify killings in the name of religion. "Death to ..., death to..., death to blah blah blah" How can you be peaceful if you want to kill? How can you be peaceful if you have hatred in your heart? How can you be peaceful if you have blood in your hand? Iranian people, its time to get rid of this murderous thugs in your government. The world is with you. Dont let this people rape and kill your children. Dont let this people rape your country. Dont let this people oppress you and keep you hostage in your own country. Don't let this people rape your religion and looks bad in the eyes of the world. It's time to stand up and fight for your freedom. May peace be with you...
Bill Davit,
"The response is “hey what about Palestine.”"
It simply won't do to say that Palestine is just some "other issue", some diversion for the internal problems in Iran and other muslim countries. Israel is an expansionist, interventionist, warmonger state (I am using these words in their clinical not pejorative sense). Israel’s actions go WAY BEYOND what they do to the Palestinians in Palestine; THEY IMPACT THE WHOLE REGION, including Iran.
This is not in any way an exaggeration. Please read the work of the late, great Palestinian writer EDWARD SAID who carefully explained how Zionism had distorted Arab nationalism and Arab governments, how the expulsion, i.e. ETHNIC CLEANSING of the Palestinians had shaped the subsequent history of not only Palestine but Syria, Egypt, Jordan, Lebanon of course, but also Iraq and Iran.
Much of the response of the modern Ba’ath party can be attributed to the response to the Zionist Israeli threat. Look at how Israel propped up Hamas against the PLO (something they now regret), how they used the threat of Kurdish separatism against Iraq.
AND THIS IS NOT JUST THE PAST!
Look at the work of courageous investigative reporter Seymour Hersh below on Israeli interference, sabotage and attacks on its neighbors (INCLUDING IRAN):
"Israeli intelligence and military operatives are now quietly at work in Kurdistan, providing training for Kurdish commando units and, most important in Israel’s view, running covert operations inside Kurdish areas of Iran and Syria. Israel feels particularly threatened by Iran, whose position in the region has been strengthened by the war. The Israeli operatives include members of the Mossad, Israel’s clandestine foreign-intelligence service, who work undercover in Kurdistan as businessmen and, in some cases, do not carry Israeli passports." http://www.newyorker.com/archive/2004/06/28/040628fa_fact?currentPage=2
The problems with the Zionist Israeli state go way beyond the crimes against the Palestinian. (And I'll be the first to condemn Holocaust denial by AN or anyone else. The Holocaust is a historical fact just like the ARMENIAN GENOCIDE)
By the way EA to its credit does devote a fair amount of coverage to the Israeli crimes and I’ve noticed that those who are so quick to post anything (no matter how outrageous) to demonize the Iranian Govt. are strangely silent. Often no one even posts on those topics. Just an observation.
@Samuel
WROTE : By the way EA to its credit does devote a fair amount of coverage to the Israeli crimes and I’ve noticed that those who are so quick to post anything (no matter how outrageous) to demonize the Iranian Govt. are strangely silent. Often no one even posts on those topics. Just an observation.
--------------------------------------
Fair Enough. Partly this could be because Iran is now a much more hot topic to follow. If we were in the time when Israel last attacked Lebanon (and the incredible war crimes that they were guilty of during that time) you would have seen more people re-act.
But it is true that the west turns a blind eye to the crimes Israel commits which go against all international agreements. I dont know how many UN resolutions Israel has gainst it and how many more the US has stopped. Still the west is always so mild in condeming them. Perhaps because they still feel ashamed for WWII.
But again lets look at our own problems first, lets solve our own issues and the injustice happening to our own people.
"But again lets look at our own problems first, lets solve our own issues and the injustice happening to our own people."
But the issue of Israel cannot be divorced from the Internal situation is Iran, Syria, Jordan, Lebanon etc., because the Israeli state, as explained above, is constantly intervening to prevent the creation and maintenance of strong, Independent states. Right now, as Hersh, shows they are intervening in significant ways in both Iraq and Iran.
For all interested in Hersh's full story, here is the link:
http://www.democracynow.org/2004/6/22/seymour_hersh_israeli_agents_operating_in
We should add that the American invasion of Iraq is almost inconceivable without taking into account Israeli pressure and the influence of the Israeli Lobby. http://us.macmillan.com/theisraellobbyandusforeignpolicy
Israel is about a lot more than just Palestinian opression (as bad as that is). Israel is about invading and interfering in other countries either by itself or by getting the US to do it on its behalf.
If the US ever takes military action against Iran (a very serious mistake) you can be sure that will be due to Israeli influence.
The whole neo conservative establishment in the United States which is so influential in foreign policy is primarily driven by individuals who put the interests of the Israeli state first.
@ Samuel
Killing and Raping innocent boys and girls, lack of freedom of speech, corrupt regime, false election, Do you really wanna blame this on Israel and expect us to take it seriously ?
Afshin,
As you well understand I am making a larger point which is that the Israeli actions over the years have radicalized the whole region.
As shown above by Hersh, Said and others when govts in the region talk about Israeli interference they are not making things up. Countries under external attack often resort to harsh restrictions internally. (example: America put innocent Japanese in internment camps when it was at war with Japan).
False elections? Khatami was conspiring to overthrow the SL as revealed by his own words. He wanted to overthrow the Khomeini Revolution. This is what a "velvet revolution" means. You expect a govt., ANY GOVT., to sit back and let that happen?
As for the rapes and other abuses you are far too smart and knowledgeable to believe that the SL is directing this. You are simply engaging in the propaganda of the reformists. Such crimes undermine his authority. He is no more responsible than Obama is for the thousands of tragic rapes that occur in American prisons each year. (note that the report below charges "state authorities" for being responsible.
See below
"No Escape - Male Rape in US Prisons - Home | Human Rights WatchReport claiming that state authorities are responsible for widespread prisoner-on-prisoner sexual abuse in US men's prisons." http://www.hrw.org/legacy/reports/2001/prison/
If we are speaking on a larger note, then yes thats a fact same goes goes for the americans and even some very wealthy individuals and also IRAN. Iran is involved in the region invloving its self in other countries business. But that is world politics and it would be naieve to deny that.
Regarding the crimes such as rape, even if the leader is not directly involved, he is still allowing it and turning away his eyes from it. He is allowing it and that is wrong. Also you know as well as i do how many others he has allowed to be murdered. He has so much blood on his hand that is beyond imaginantion.
I do not condone what US, the Britain and Israel have done and are still doing BUT I also do not condone the crimes being commited by the S.L, the guards and also the like of Hashemi. So please dont be so one sided with your analyses.
And regarding your last link in US Prisons, u are doing it again, we say about the crimes in Iran and you say well look it also happens in the US..... Two wrongs dont make a right....
I still hope and pray that one day we will have a goverment that is there for the people and treats its own citizens with respect. A goverment that respects justice and freedom of speech.
"Two wrongs dont make a right…." how very true!
Unfortunately, often disregarded in debatting political issues, wrongs sometimes aspire to vindicate other wrongs... sad, very sad :(
The point about rape in America is not that two wrongs don't make a right, the point is that it is not related to Politics in America or in Iran.
It happens because of the nature of prisons and the fact that sadists and other disturbed individuals are attracted to such positions just like child molesters are attracted to schools and other places with children.
There were rapes in prison too under Khatami and sadly there will be rapes in prison 30 years from now no matter what the govt. is in Iran. But it was not used as a weapon to undermine Khatami.
The only ones who favor rape, child molestation or cannibalism are rapists, child molesters and cannibals.
As I said rapes do ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to help the SL, nothing at all. But it does help the greens to portray the regime as a govt. or rapists and demons.
@Samuel
The diffrence is that in the US the people are in prison for Rape, Murder, etc etc etc
In Iran because they said where is my vote....
@ Samuel
If you are so sure, that "rapes do ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to help the SL," - why doesn't he stop them, then????
I mentioned this before in another post. A very effective tool to use when facing a nation dissatisfied with its leadership is FEAR.
When protestors get killed, hurt, raped, etc etc etc.. it makes them think twice before letting their voices be heard again. The Guards are using the tool FEAR and the leader is allowing them.
...but if the elections were really not about reform but about killing the Revolution as Khatami admitted...
@ Samuel
1) That is not proven, there is no hard evidence for it
2) Even if that be the case are u saying that would justify, RAPE, MURDER, STEALING OF THE ELECTION, INJUSTICE ?
Samuel
1)
If my next door neighbor is a murderer, does it mean it's OK for me to kill somebody?
2)
Even if it's OK for me to commit murder based on my neighbor's conduct, your analogies to the US are not apples to apples, but rather are apples to oranges. For example,
a) US govt interring the Japanese in WWII: There are many things we did in the past that are not acceptable. We had racial segregation in those days. The Japanese camps would not happen today. It's like justifying slavery by saying the US used to have slavery. We also used to put people in stocks on the public square. Standards change as societies develop.
b) The neocons are no longer in power. The govt of Israel isn't getting on so well with the Obama admin, which is demanding the freeze of settlements
c) Every large prison system has rape. The rape in Iran was done by political militia as a political response to people who disagreed with the government. The rape Karoubi reported was an organized policy to terrorize and control the people-- using the threat of like treatment to intimidate potential protesters in the future.
3)
There is no imminent external threat to Iran. The rhetoric from Israel sound like they are looking for an excuse to act, I think it's a card in the more toward the Palestinian negotiation game. Either way, the repercussions from the West would be so drastic that I can't imagine it happening.
4)
Even if there was as imminent threat to Iran and even if it was morally justifiable to intern everybody who disagrees with the government, there is no earthly way to justify torture, rape and killing of prisoners. Even if every other country on earth is doing it, there still is no justification. It's just flat out wrong
It's just flat out wrong and I know that you know it is.
Samuel,
Thank our for your response. I have actually read quite a bit of Said's and Hersh's work. While a lot of what the write about has merit much of it is tainted by other motives. Hersh is a journalist and like all journalists nothing props them up more than a "juicy" article to create controversy. Hersh in his own words said "Sometimes I change events, dates, and places in a certain way to protect people... I can’t fudge what I write. But I can certainly fudge what I say." In addition Hersh is widely noted for extensive use of anonymous sources rarely if ever revealing them. In short he is out to sell articles more than anything else.
Said on the other hand is largely driven by his own political agenda. He is often blind to other views because of his unwavering view that his view is the only right one. Take for example his sterotyping of Western Hegemony over the east. He states it started 2,000 years ago yet completely ignores the fact that during that time the Islamic world conqured 2/3 of the Christian world, the birth place of Buddhism, and the majority of the Hindu world. He uses this arguement to bolster his case against colonialism and current western policy. He completely ignores the fact of Islam's imperialistic nature and unwavering view that their way is the only right way. He harps about the West trying to force it's values on others and again ignores whenever Islam ever took territory they systematically worked to Islamisize the people effectively embarking cultural genocide. The evidence is eradication of Buddhism in Afghanistan, Turkey the home of orthodox Christianity now 99.9% Muslim, the fact religious minorities almost universally get smaller in Islamic states as the years pass, and the existence of the vestiges of Dhimmi laws codified in law in much of the Islamic world. European Colonialsim was expansionist but largely due to ecomonomic reasons. Unlike their Islamic counterparts the Europeans did not embark on an effort to drive the existing culture in the ground. Colonialism lasted no longer than 180 years while the Islamic world still holds much of what it conqured. It's why they view all of Israel as theirs despite the fact it is the home of Jews.
In my view Said is largely responsible for the victimology endemic across the Islamic world. Everything is the West's and Israel's fault. The rhetoric coming out of Iran is proof of this. They often fail to realize some of their problems are their own. I attribute this largely to the culture Islam often breeds. I base this on these simple facts:
1) Islamic scholars early on rejected greek/hellenistic(critical thinking) as a threat in favor of what is divinely revealed. This states man cannot figure it out himself but instead should follow Sunnah which is the only guide for life. It is why the Islamic world rejected the printing press for 300 years. It is why the Islamic world's educational system is largely only focused on religion subordinating natural science today. Many Muslims do not realize many of their greatest scientists such as Al Kindi and Al Razi were in fact decleared heretics.
2) The gates of ijtihad, interpretation of scripture, were closed over a thousand years ago. This essentially means Islamic law cannot be changed and is based on a time far different than today. Ironically this does not hold true for the Shia faith and it's why Iran in many ways is more democratic than much of the Islamic world.
3) Islamic scripture clearly predispositions the other in a negative light and often as a direct threat. Fundamentalists today even indicate simple unbelief as the greatest threat to Islam. After all the infidels unbelief, shirk, is often reason enough for many hardliners. Islamic law supports this and clearly delineates the other as not equal.
Said embodies all of this often ingnoring what he attributes to the West is often the ideology of early Islam and todays Islamist. Hamas's complains of genocide/oppression yet their charter clearly states they want all of Israel irrespective of the historical fact Israel is the home of the Jews. They believe it simply because it is an Islamic wafq based on the premise once conqured by Islam its always Islamic. Many Islamists even still indicate spain as part of the Islamic world and claim it needs to be taken back. Using this logic Christians should take back Turkey which is the home of orthodox Christianity!
I don't condone much of Israel's apartheid and often barbaric tactis but what are they to do? Much of the Islamic world simply wants them to gone and to boot the Islamic end of times will result in all Jews being killed! Israel was recreated under quite dubious means but so was much of the world. What people have not been conqured at one time? The Islamic world's addiction to the Jew is a huge issue not becasue of the human plight but because the Islamic world will never let go of it. It is a double standard so characteristic to the Islamic world. We can conqure and convert you but oh no you can't do it to us.
Iran like much of the Islamic world has got to stop feeding this issue. Their enablement does not solve the problem but largely perpetuates it. As I stated earlier they keep it going to the detriment of much greater issues. Some, like Iran, do it consciously, because their nothing better than a good story about those "evil zionists" to distract the masses. What you saw on Quds day was a realization by a number of Iranians of this fact and they rejected it. They are simply tired of hearing about Palestine while their economy is horrible, unemployment is high, and are denied basic human rights. They of tired of seeing their government spend a billion plus on someone else while the regime igonores, beats, and rapes them simply for voicing their concern!
I hope you see this as an attempt to provide my rationalization for the whole scenario. I in no way condone Israel's behavior. They are treating the pals quite horribly and against interanational law! The only reason the issue should be addressed is not because of human plight but because as you noted it is a huge destabalizing factor in the region. It just pisses me off to see it used as a distraction and often so in the face of much larger issues such as Darfur.
Gotta go see my boys Alice in Chains in concert. Won't be the same as Layne but should be fun!
Thx
Bill
Bill Davit,
That is a very thorough and profound response. I'm not sure I've completely digested it yet but I will.
Amy,
The SL did close one of the prisons due to abuses but that has earned him precious little credit from the reformists who demonize him. The next accussation against the SL from the reformists will be that he is personally raping the prisoners.
In order to truly understand the current crisis a little historical context is necessary. Khatami, the very same Khatami, was elected President NOT ONCE but TWICE, in 1997 and 2001. He had not 4 years but 8 years to put his plans into work.
In 1997 the Supreme Leader then was the same SL as now, the Pasdaran existed then and it exists now. There was a Basij then and there is a Basij now and very few people except for his family had heard of a man named Ahmadinejad.
Khatami was allowed to serve two full terms, there were no coup attempts, no one tried to kill him or hurt him in any way whatsoever. While the hardliners certainly disagreed with him on some issues he was allowed to win RE-ELECTION without any issues. IN BOTH 1997 AND 2009 THE CONSERVATIVE CANDIDATE LOST and the oppositon sat down and took it. And so did the Supreme Leader.
Why are the "demons" who run Iran today not as "demonic" then with the same Khatami???
The answer is simple. The difference is with the agenda of the Khatami of today and his allies Karroubi and Mousavi. The Khatami of today wanted to decapitate the Iranian Revolution by weakening and, in effect, eliminating the Guardianship of the Islamic Jurisprudent.
We do not need to read Khatami's mind, his words on this subject have been quoted verbatim in public. We know what he wanted and we know how he wanted to do it--through the use of the electoral process. Hitler too used the electoral process to kill the prior form of Govt. in Germany.
Khatami's agenda in 2009 (unlike 1997) was not reformist it was REVOLUTIONARY, to overthrow the work and Legacy of the Ayatollah Khomeini. They came to kill the Khomeini Revolution which is 30 years old and the Revolution hit back.
To continue with Amy's analogy of a neighborhood let me propose my own.
You own and live in a lovely old house that may need repairs. You hire a contractor/building company to come in and fix, rejuvenate, "reform" that lovely home. They are highly recommended based on past work they've done in the neighborhood.
They come to your house and urge/recommend substantial changes: raise the ceilings, new roof, an extension to the house, new plumbing, new windows, 2 skylights, complete new Kitchen etc,. You hesitate a bit because they are a bit arrogant and agressive in pushing their plans but you trust them and sincerely believe that they have your interest and your home's best interest at heart.
And so you agree and hand them the keys as you set off on a long weekend stay with relatives in the country. But then you overhear their true plans. They plan to steal your furniture, tear down the walls and set the whole lovely old family home on fire. Their goal is not to "reform" your house but to destroy it; instead of fixing they aim to decapitate.
What to do? At this point as with any self-respecting person you gather your brothers, cousins and friends, you pick up clubs and you start swinging--hard.
"US govt interring the Japanese in WWII: There are many things we did in the past that are not acceptable. We had racial segregation in those days. The Japanese camps would not happen today. We also used to put people in stocks on the public square. Standards change as societies develop."
Would not happen today? Would not happen today? Are we talking about the same govt. that invaded another country based on complete lies having to do with WMD's? The same govt. that killed tens of thousands if not hundreds of thousands in Iraq, starting in 2003--not exactly decades ago. The same govt. that sanctioned ethnic cleasing in Baghdad as part of its campaign
against the insurgency? The same govt. that tortured people in the name of the war on terror.
Before somebody says it "this is not two wrongs don't make a right" point: it is to say that the American Govt. and society has not progressed or evolved as much as you think. And if your point is that the American govt. does not do such things internally but does so abroad, well that is hardly comforting.
Finally even Mr. Obama does not hesistate to massacre innocents with his drones in Pakistan and Afghanistan. It's clean and there are no pictures of Nedas lying on the ground with this high-tech form of war but it's still mass murder.
@ Bill Davit
Oh wow, now you sound just like Samuel, only the other side of the lake....
Quite Funny to see the other side;
"Unlike their Islamic counterparts the Europeans did not embark on an effort to drive the existing culture in the ground. "
Euuhhh American Indians ring a bell !!!!??? Ever heard of Aztecs, Maya's, etc