The Latest from Iran (31 October): Karroubi to March on 13 Aban

NEW Iran: Mousavi Statement for 13 Aban Demonstrations (31 October)
Iran: Why is Israel Now Endorsing the Enrichment Deal?
Iran: Human Rights is a Problem…in the US and Europe
Video: Tonight “Allahu Akhbars” at Sharif University
More Time, Please: Ahmadinejad’s Legitimacy and Iran’s Nuclear Talks
Latest from Iran (30 October): Now to the Real Contest

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2040 GMT: It's Official: Bring It On. First we had Mir Hossein Mousavi's statement, now we have Mehdi Karroubi's signal that he will be joining the crowds on 13 Aban. The cleric has promised further details soon but indicated that he will be joining students at the "Polytechnic" in Tehran. This may refer to Amir Kabir University, although earlier chatter said Karroubi would be going to Sharif University.

2020 GMT: Handing Down "Justice". The deputy head of Iran's judiciary, Ebrahim Raeesi, has announced that sentences for 50 post-election detainees have been issued. Some detainees are appealing the verdicts, and Raeesi urged colleagues to speed up the processing of the cases.

For Raeesi, it is clear, has made his mind: “Those who have proposed the elections were fraudulent and created doubt in the public’s mind have undoubtedly committed a grave crime and naturally will have to answer for the crime they have committed.”

1930 GMT: We've now posted the English translation of Mir Hossein Mousavi's statement welcoming the 13 Aban (4 November) demonstrations (see 1200 and 1215 GMT). The declaration is a spirited presentation of and for the Green movement in the context of the history of 13 Aban, Ayatollah Khomeini, and the Islamic Revolution.

And it is also a spirited criticism of Ahmadinejad's negotiations over the nuclear programme with the United States and other countries, accusing the President of selling out Iran for the sake of his personal position: "Today, it appears that a large proportion of the product of Iran’s nuclear program, which has caused much chaos and brought a number of sanctions for the people, must be handed to another country, in hopes that they will be kind enough to offer us some fuel later on.

1740 GMT: Former President Mohammad Khatami has met with members of the Central Council of the Islamic Association of Tehran University and Tehran Medical Sciences. Khatami warned that surveillance into personal affairs of people is not allowed even in the cases of those who do not believe in the Establishment or in God, as long as they do not use weapons.

The former President emphasised that the Green movement is against violence but in the opposite side there are some who only think and act violently. Khatami said it must first be accepted that there is a crisis in the society, and then one can find the solution; if there are mistakes in analysing the current situation, there will be more problems in the future.

1730 GMT: Morteza Alviri, Mehdi Karroubi’s representative in the joint Karroubi-Mousavi committee formed to investigate prison abuse cases, was released from prison on bail this afternoon.

There is confusion, however, over Behzad Nabavi, a senior member of the reformist Mojahedin of Islamic Revolution who has been illegally detained since June. It was reported that Nabavi had been released, but this has been denied by his family, who say he is still in hospital after surgery last month.

1405 GMT: Alef News carries a purported interview with mathematics student Mahmoud Vahidnia, who challenged the Supreme Leader with a series of questions on Wednesday. Vahidnia denies that he was arrested after the incident.

1340 GMT: The reformist cleric Abdollah Nouri has visited Mohammad Ghoochani, the editor-in-chief of Etemade Melli newspaper released yesterday after more than four months in detention.

1215 GMT: How Not to Report Breaking News. Reuters summarises the Mousavi statement, "Opposition leader Mirhossein Mousavi appeared to urge his supporters on Saturday to take part in rallies next week marking the 30th anniversary of the U.S. embassy takeover by radical students in Tehran."

Appears? Yes, in the same way that the Pope "appears" to be Catholic and many students "appear" to be concerned about the Iranian Government. And nice touch by the news service to frame 13 Aban as just an extension of "radical students" who took Americans hostage in 1979.

1200 GMT: We return from a break to find that Mir Hossein Mousavi has issued a statement, his 14th of the post-election crisis, ahead of the 13 Aban (4 November) demonstrations. The statement is a rallying call, praising students for their determination and encouraging them to remain strong for "the Greenest day of the year". Mousavi stands against extremism, as he declares that the "Green path" is the "rational way".

0935 GMT: Meanwhile, President Ahmadinejad is not going to be deflected from his strategy of continued engagement as a sign of the acceptance of the legitimacy of Iran's Government. He told veterans today that "the best way forward" for the "West" was "co-operation with the Iranian nation".

0855 GMT: A gentle morning in Iranian politics, so we've been working on other stories from the role of money in US politics to the latest on Israel-Turkey relations as well as an item on Iran's condemnation of the US, Canada, and Europe for human rights violations.

There are increasingly interesting developments on Iran's nuclear talks and US-Iranian relations, however.

Our suspicion about Ali Larijani's renewed attack on Washington for its supposed involvement in the recent suicide bombing in southeastern Iran --- this is a tactic to challenge the Ahmadinejad Government's continued discussions with the US on nuclear issues --- is reinforced by  statements from other high-profile conservative and principlist legislators. Alaeddin Boroujerdi, the head of Parliament's National Security Committee, repeated his objection from earlier this week:

We are completely opposed to the proposal on delivering uranium with 3.5 percent enrichment in exchange for uranium with 20 percent enrichment. There is no guarantee they would give us fuel with 20 percent enrichment in exchange for our delivered LEU. We have deep mistrust in relation to the Westerners.

Kazem Jalali, another key member of the committee, declared, "The demand that we should deliver all enriched nuclear material to other countries so that they would supply Tehran's fuel needs is completely out of the question."

Andrew Lee Butters of Time magazine has a good overview article picking up on the "storm of criticism from across the Iranian political spectrum", highlighting the remarks of Mir Hossein Mousavi as well as the Government's Parliamentary challengers:

Conservatives had accused moderates of treason over previous attempts to reach a nuclear agreement with the West; now the country's embattled opposition leaders are getting their own back, perhaps fearful that rapprochement between the West and Ahmadinejad would reinforce the regime that has cracked down hard since the election.

Comments

[Samuel]

@Adam,

I very much respect Marandi for the choices he has made specifically the fact that he was a volunteer in the Iran-Iraq war. He could have returned to the States and had a very comfortable life, instead he risked his life in that savage war to defend his country and the Revolution.

[Bill Davit]

Samuel,

Always keeping it interesting. Sincerely I believe it is productive and healthy for you to air your point. That is what freedom and democracy are about. I would like to point out the irony of this exhchange though. That irony is the fact this type of discussion could never happen in Iran on a blog let alone openly within the press. You could argue Moussavi and Karroubi being free disproves this and you would be right. However, when you tally in jailed reformers, journalists, bloggers, and protestors it paints quite a different picutre. Least of lets not forget the regime is in utter denial about killings and rapes that have been proven fact.

Reporters without border recently published their freedom index and Iran ranked right at the bottom: http://www.rsf.org/en-classement1003-2009.html. If you delve into the details you will see Iran has almost as many journalists jailed as China does yet China is 18 times larger! I would also encourage you to post a pro reform post on PressTV. In most cases it is deleted within the hour and that is if it lets you post instead of redirecting back to front page. I post under Mad Kafir and almost all most posts that make it through are deleted within 15 minutes.

Regarding the Khomeini letter I would like to point out this was when the regime was in full force persecuting those not in line. If you remember Khomenin was the person who authorized the purge that killed thousands in Iran and put into law the persecution of Bahais. Ironically it was these liberals that he turned on that actually helped him come to power. The letter itself was indicative of one challenging another because he did not believe in his edicts. This becomes a slippery slope when that person and the government believes this person is ordained by God to lead. Khomeini's use of hypocrites is symptomatic of one under the "God" complex. The Quran is clear that distinction is for the afterlife not for man to decide(akin to the whold apostate debate.) Who is Khomeini to judge someone's religious adherence in light of this? In my mind Khomeini chose the wrong course and that is why the current regime is run by a totalitarian regime who believes only in their truth. To challenge that truth in their minds is to challenge God!!! And now we are at the crux of the problem--man thinking he is God's chosen and direct istrustment on earth!

thx
Bill

[Adam]

Samuel, do you not find it interesting that while you and Marandi are free to talk to western media, high ranking clerics such as Montazeri, Karroubi, Khatami, etc... cannot?
Montazeri and Karroubi's religious credentials are far above and beyond those of Khamenei, how can it be an islamic republic if these high ranking clerics are not even allowed out in public because they speak out against oppression?

[Samuel]

Adam,

Why is it that everyone forgets to mention that Khatami WAS ACTUALLY PRESIDENT OF IRAN! Not for one week, not for six months, not for two years, not for five years but for eight years. Did the SL prevent him from becoming President? Did the Pasdaran overthrow him? Was he prevented then or now from travelling abroad? Khatami travelled the world representing Iran, including a well publicized trip to Lebanon where he was very warmly received. When Khatami was elected president the only folks that knew about AN were his wife and children.

Yes the "reformers" everyone idolizes were actually in power for eight years. Let me anticipate your response if I can.

"Yes they were in power but the SL and Ansar e Hezbollah kept interfering".

Yes that's true but it does not negate the fact that the reformers were in power for a long time during which time, as I mentioned above, Khatami unilaterally suspended Uranium enrichment.

[Samuel]

Bill Davit,

Let me address your points but before I do so I want to point out that we come at this issue from fundamentally different perspectives. I am not one who fetishizes western style democracy as the model to be followed or imposed on other nations and cultures.

To me Putin is following the correct path in Russsia with his Authoritarian/Populist policies, reversing the horrible policies of the westernizing Boris Yeltsin. Yeltsin almost destroyed Russia, Putin has saved it. Similarly China has propered incredibly in so many ways under the authoritarian, non-democratic road which it has pursued over the last two decades (After it abandoned Mao style communism). The westernizers of Tiananmen Square would have done to China what Yeltsin did to Russia.

The criticism of Western style democracy and its application to other cultures has been broadly made by individuals like Lee Yuan Kew, the former Prime Minister of Singapore. See for example: Culture Is Destiny; A Conversation with Lee Kuan Yew
http://fareedzakaria.com/index.html.

In foreign policy many scholars have noted how western "democracies" use/exploit the language of "human rights" to justify agressive war(the invasion of Iraq, vietnam, Panama, Grenada, Afghanistan, etc,.) terrorism in the form of drone attacks etc. As long as the language is correct you can "destroy the village in order to save it".

In similar manner Catholic intellectuals in the West have pointed out the incongruity of societies that drone on about "human rights" but allow millions of fetuses to be aborted every year. Some devout Catholics have even called this a Holocaust. Interestingly, the Catholic Church had an uneasy relationship with western style democracy for many years. See for example the Vatican's position regarding Italian Democracy in the 19th and early 20th century.

Is Iran a "western style" democracy with all the characteristics which that implies? Absolutely not. As shaped by the Ayatollah Khomeini it is a theocratic form of government with democratic elements.

[Samuel]

Bill Davit,

The system in Iran as I said has democratic elements which is why figures as different as Rafsanjani, Khatami and AN have been President. Compare that to Saudi Arabia and Egypt over the last 30 years (Countries adored by that Western Democracy America)
There have been periods of greater openness and times such as now where the regime has cracked down and no, of course, the press is not free during these times.

Khatami, as mentioned previously, was elected President twice and I can assure you that the Supreme Leader of that time has not been replaced by his evil twin. What then is the difference between the SL of 1997 and the SL of 2009?

The key difference is that the "reform" coalition of 2009 intended to fundamentally alter the institutions of the Islamic Republic not merely to change or modify this economic policy or that foreighn policy position. All the pro-reformists like to deride the term but the Greens really did want to pursue a "velvet revolution". Khatami, for one, was quoted before the election as seeking radical change possibly including the elimination of the Guardianship of the Jurisprudent.

Sorry, that won't do. If you want to overthrow the Islamic revolution pick up a Kalashnikov and fight like the MoK. The Islamic Revolution is not a suicide pact.

With regards to the Khomeini letter. Of course the Ayatollah Khomeini was responsible for earlier crackdowns. He was never the liberal reformer of Green Propaganda. But his attack on Montazeri was due to Montazeri's betrayal. Montazeri used his position at that time to protect the murderer Hashemi and to undermine Rafsanjani at every turn.

[adam]

Samuel, you are a very sophisticated propagandist, I'm pretty sure you are in direct contact with the regime. I find it interesting that you think Marandi is brave, ;).
However, I must refute your seemingly infinite ability to lie. Marandi's sole role in this crisis has been to crowd out Iranian voices who are trying to speak about human rights to western media. The fact that western media, in their naivete, have played his stooge does not excuse him morally.
Marandi has shown no bravery for Iran, and by providing a propaganda front for the regime, he has knowingly contributed to the deaths of Neda Soltani and Taraneh Mousavi (and her gang rape by his basij militia) among others, as well as the Sodomy perpetrated against male prisoners.
Samuel, you seem to see yourself as a hardliner in regards to the Islamic nature of Iran. So in that case why do you support the beatings of high ranking clerics and Sodomy upon young Iranians by the Basij? Is it possible that YOU are the HYPOCRITE?

[Samuel]

Adam,

You will note that I said that Marandi was brave for voluteering for the Iran/Iraq war not for what he does now.

[Adam]

You nitpicked at the most irrelevant part of my post and completely ignored my questions about your support for the beating of high ranking clerics and the sodomizing of young Iranians by the Basij. I don't know how you justify any of this to yourself, its like talking to a robot.

[pessimist]

Samuel said :

<I am not one who fetishizes western style democracy as the model to be followed or imposed on other nations and cultures.

As it's the much celebrated 20th anniversary of the fall of the Berlin wall, I was watching a tv doc tonight and thought that there are similarities between the ex GDR and Iran. The fact that (at least) 12% fled to the west before they built the wall. And many tried and died afterwards.

That communist régime seems similar to your islamist regime. One difference was that for a women it was far freer in GDR. One advantage for Iranians is more freedom to travel. But many also fled, what is the official percentage ?

You say, Iran is a theocracy with democratic elements, the GDR, means "German Democratic Republic" so they also had 'elements of democracy", and when they finally broke the wall, they had no (or few) problems adapting to full western type democracy. So I think Iranians could.

The problem is for countries who have never had any form of democracy, they need time to learn it. China will too, as they already have 'elements' and no religion to hamper it.

[Samuel]

Adam,

It is interesting that you accuse me of being a liar yet you do not mention a single instance where i've lied. Now on to your second point.

I'm not sure where you get the notion that clerics who attack and try to overthrow the Revolution are somehow untouchable. The historical record shows that cleric traitors were arrested and even executed under the regime of the Ayatollah Khomeini.

[Samuel]

Adam,

There nothing I could say that will convince you otherwise since you obviously believe that the whole Regime from the SL on down is made up of rapists so I won't even disturb those thoughts.

But note that a policy of rape for political purposes would be the most stupid, self-defeating path to take for the govt. If the purpose is to intimidate there is a much cleaner, more acceptable method--a 7.62X39 round. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/7.62x39

[Samuel]

Adam,

Well, well, well, it seems that President Khatami, the idol of millions of reformers was responsible for rapes in Iran during his term.

Money quote:

"The judge who presided over Atefeh’s sham trial and sentenced her to death by public hanging is reported to have raped Atefeh himself before he personally placed the noose around her tiny neck."

http://www.iranfreedomconcert.com/lily.html
Instead of siding with the students who had voted him into office, Khatami aligned himself with the rest of his fundamentalist Mullahs, and tolerated the violent beatings, imprisonment, torture, and even murder of the students whose only crime had been their support of democracy and free speech.

Among these students were Ahmad Mohammadi, who died a few weeks ago in jail, and Ahmad Batebi, who, to this day, remains in the infamous Evin prison for his participation in that demonstration.
But the violence towards students was not the only atrocity that Mr. Khatami tolerated.

A dramatic increase in the execution of minors and women, including those who had been raped or had been accused of committing the crimes of adultery or acts incompatible with chastity was also tolerated by our guest speaker here today. Among the victims of such “tolerance” was Atefeh Rajabi, who was sentenced to death by public hanging for having committed “adultery,” even though she was not married, and was only 16 years old.

The judge who presided over Atefeh’s sham trial and sentenced her to death by public hanging is reported to have raped Atefeh himself before he personally placed the noose around her tiny neck. The so-called justification for such despicable act of savagery is the Sharia legal system, put in place by the Islamic Regime and championed by Mr. Khatemi. Under Sharia law, virgin girls are not allowed to be executed, for their purity might open up the doors of heaven to them. To avoid this, virgin girls, such as Atefeh, who are sentenced to death, are raped before execution to ensure their proper place in hell.

Mr. Khatami was more than tolerant of this type of horror, violence, and inhumane treatment to which young Atefeh and countless others were subjected.

He was similarly tolerant of the uncivilized, unethical, and despicable treatment of Zahra Kazemi, the Canadian photo-journalist who was accused of taking photos of the Evin prison in Tehran. Mr. Khatami demonstrated remarkable tolerance when Ms. Kazemi was imprisoned, violently raped, tortured, and ultimately murdered. And ignoring all forms of civilized practice and ethical standards, Mr. Khatami tolerated the denial of access to Ms. Kazemi’s body to not only the Canadian officials who had requested such access, but to Ms. Kazemi’s own son, who, to this day, is fighting to bring his mother’s killers to justice."

[Samuel]

Adam,

That President Khatami was really much, much worse than we all imagined. A monster really:

"Amir Abbas Fakravar, another student leader who recently arrived in the United States, said he was tortured for 222 days in Iran.

Minou Khomeili, who heads a nonprofit organization in Canada that provides aid to Iranian refugees, said she personally witnessed the rape and murder of a 14-year old girl by Iranian regime prison officials. "I will never forget the way [prison officials] washed the blood off their hands after they killed that girl," she said.

"If Iran were a democratic country, Khatami would have been arrested for these crimes," she added."

http://archive.newsmax.com/archives/articles/2006/9/7/194826.shtml

[Adam]

Interesting that you cite Newsmax (a right-wing ideologue newsletter) when previously you had refused to believe that any media outlet that isn't controlled by the Iranian state is propoganda.
As for the articles condemning Khatami, President Khatami's crime was to not stand more firmly against Khamenei and his hardline allies abuses of power. I can assure you it was not Khatami who ordered the mass murders and imprisonments of Iran's youth, it was Khamenei.
Since I can see who you're working for I will henceforth ignore the distraction of Ahmadinejad and focus all accusations against Khamenei, the true dictator whose hands are soaked with the blood of young Iranians.

[Bill Davit]

Samuel,

Thank you for your post. My comments were not to try and compare western democracy with other forms of democracy. My point was to demonstrate the irony of the discussion in light of the events in Iran. I do agree with you that the West trys to import its democracy often oblivious to the cultural and religious norms of that country. I would also agree the whole comparision of support for dictators in Egypt/Saudia Arabia and opposition to Iran has a smell of hypocrisy about it. Namely we will deride the regime in Iran but remain silent for our support of outright undemocratic oppression our "friends" practice on a daily basis. Along that vein, I personally believe it should never have been a war on terror but one based on ideology. We should have been attacking from day one the ideologies espoused by the Wahhabis and Muslim Brotherhood. Both these organizations form the ideological and material support for most of the worst fanatics across the globe. By selectively ignoring undemocratic regimes in other areas in the Middle East while instead focusing on Iran does a diservice to the people in the region but more importantly erodes any moral authority we may have.

Aside from all that my point on the irony still stands. Iran says it is democractic(even as they term it) but the current events and prior policies point otherwise. You cannot be trully democractic if you justify extra judical killings, rapes, beatings, and outright media oppression. A case in point is Ahmandienjad's claim that they have free press and freedom of religion which are patently false. The fundamental problem is thet they believe they are doing Gods work. When one takes into account the meaning of God's word in Islam it only further compounds the issue. The theocracy in Iran has democractic elements but in essense it is a meme constructed to build up the revolution and export it. Protecting that meme or system is the foundation the regime is built on. In their minds all means are viable to protect it. The system is more important than the people it is meant to serve. I believe God is supreme but not the system meant to worship him. The system is man made not divine and that is the crux of the issue in Iran. You have to ask yourself would God would approve of Iran's behavior of late? I would hedge a bet he might be quite upset.

The grand irony of all this is my belief that the Iranian people are more ideologically aligned with the West than the rest of the Sunni world. I think if we ever get beyond the differences the Iranian people will be a powerful force in achieving reconciliation between the West and the Islamic world.

Thx
Bill